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Ryonez
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 9:30 am    Post subject: Question regarding OpenRC versus Systemd Reply with quote

Hi there.

First a heads up, I have used Gentoo before, then used Windows while peeking around Linux systems.
My current home setup is a Windows 10 Desktop(with network shares, a media database server and setup for games), a Windows 10 multimedia pc( hardly used for anything not multimedia playback) and a Ubuntu 14.04 server running a TeamSpeak server and a test website step up. I have a Toshiba Satellite Pro L300 which I'm looking at sticking Gentoo on.


After looking at this: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems
it seems that systemd would be the best to use. So I'm curious to see what you guys think, and why it isn't being used as Gentoo's default init.
Could you also help me read these:
https://packages.gentoo.org/package/sys-apps/systemd
https://packages.gentoo.org/package/sys-apps/openrc

Another reason I'm looking into this is that Gnome3 (which I probably won't use) requires systemd and ubuntu is shifting to it in their next release(ref: http://askubuntu.com/questions/19320/how-to-enable-or-disable-services)


If it helps, I plan to use Gentoo as I learn to program. The more you tell me, the more I'll learn :)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez,

Welcome to Gentoo.

I'll ignore the flamebait in your first post and ask that other respondents do too, or this thread will be yet another init systems flamefest to get locked.

systemd is now much more than the init system it started out as. Red Hat want you to use it as it will provide vendor lock in to Red Hat, much as Windows provides vendor lock in to Microsoft.
History shows that vendors that go for this sort of lock in become extinct. Look at the workstation companies that were killed off by open source.
systemd is monolithic, in the same way as a completed jigsaw is monolithic. You cannot swap pieces out. As its monolithic, a problem in one piece affects all the other pieces.
As it crumbles, it gets hardered and harder to fix.

Other init systems are not perfect. They score over systemd in that they are kits of parts with interchanagebale pieces. You put your system together using the pieces you want.
Thats also the Gentoo way for all software.

Gentoo is really just the package manager and the ebuild tree. Everything else is upstream. Think of it as Linux from scratch with a pachage manager.
Its a kit af parts that helps you build your own Linux distro. Every Gentoo install is different, so don't compare it to binary distros.

Binary distros be they Windows or Linux force you to have packages the way the distro vendor intended. With Gentoo you are the vendor. Gentoo puts the controls in your hands and you will have to learn to use them.

Out of the box, Gnome3 depends on systemd. Why a destop depends on an init system, only Red Hat knows. There is a patch set to avoid that.

There is no need to provide Gentoo with systemd by default, so its not the default. Like I've said, With Gentoo you are the distro vendor. After the stage3 is installed, its all yours.
You can even swap out parts of the stage3 - you choose.
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Ryonez
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for replying NeddySeagoon.

With a bit more understanding of what's going on with systemd, I guess I'll focus my next question on what that chart says OpenRC 'falls with'.

The chart says that OpenRC does not have the ability for 'Running as a daemon' or 'Keeping daemons alive'.
What does this mean for me? Does this mean services won't auto-restart when they crash?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez,

Ryonez wrote:
What does this mean for me? Does this mean services won't auto-restart when they crash?


Correct.
When your daemons crash, you need to investigate and fix the root cause, not blindly and possibly silently restart them.
Maybe the daemon crashed as a result of an attacker probing your system?
The attack failed this time as the daemon crashed, restarting it offers the attacker another opportunity.

Daemons do not normally crash and when they do, its not for no reason. On the rare occasion that they do crash, its better to leave them down until you know why.
There are options for use with openrc if you want this sort of unsafe behavior.

openrc itself has no need to run as a daemon, its designed that way.
Every process (daemon) running on your system is a potental attack vector. The less the better.
One of the first guidelines for security is to minimise the potential attack surface.
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Last edited by NeddySeagoon on Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez wrote:
Thank you for replying NeddySeagoon.

With a bit more understanding of what's going on with systemd, I guess I'll focus my next question on what that chart says OpenRC 'falls with'.

The chart says that OpenRC does not have the ability for 'Running as a daemon' or 'Keeping daemons alive'.
What does this mean for me? Does this mean services won't auto-restart when they crash?


To rerun something that crash, you must be running yourself to see it, so openrc is not a deamon, so it doesn't track the life of running service, it start them.
On the otherend, auto-(re)starting a crash service, is something that may appears great (and something you can do with openrc and another tool that do that for you)
But in real that sucks: first, if the service is crash and restart, you may not see this, that's the good idea behind it but that's a bad idea, as it is insecure, you should look at why it has crash and fix it ; if someone is trying to abuse the service, glad for him, anytime he succeed at crashing it, he get another try as the service is restart again (but not fix) and its even golden, as you may not notice the service was crash as it is running. Not seen, not catch.
While it is a good idea if you assume user is stupid, it is neat you restart service for him (assuming his stupidity include unability to restart a service), but while doing it, you are the one adding a hole in his security, as even stupid, he is not the fool that restart it blindly but YOU. That reasoning is weak, all users are stupid, so i will act stupidly myself ; and users "stupid" or "not", are at the same level because systemd is acting stupid for them.

And second, only few service crash and are able to restart like if nothing happen, generally a crash doesn't leave it in an healthy state. You don't know what the service do when starting, cleaning files (and loosing clues about original crash reason), sending password... But now it will redo that anytime it try to restart it, over and over (and clues over and over for the badass that is trying to abuse it).
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ian.au
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez wrote:

The chart says that OpenRC does not have the ability for 'Running as a daemon' or 'Keeping daemons alive'.

Different concepts by design. openRC spawns and manages many daemons and their dependencies. It doesn't need to take over PID 1 to do that.
systemd sits on PID 1 as does everything else on the table you linked that 'keeps daemons alive' you notice?
openRC just elects not to do that with sound reasoning.

Quote:
What does this mean for me?
Nothing, openrc doesn't try to compensate for flaky daemons as above
Quote:
Does this mean services won't auto-restart when they crash?
Yes and no. It depends how the service is started under openRC. There's information here:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/OpenRC#Automatic_respawning_crashed_services
There's heaps more information all over the web that touches on these issues, including here in these forums. I doubt there's much to add after around 3 years of what I'll euphemistically describe as 'systemd discussions'.

Make a decision based on your needs, the devs here have set it up so you have the choice. openrc will boot your laptop and so will systemd, either are supported. Personally I use systemd only on Gnome3 desktops, and because so far it's stable and I am too busy to bother patching/maintaining something that works as-is for the time being.

On a low-spec laptop I'd go light, either openrc/lxde or openrc /Xfce fwiiw.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez wrote:
The chart says that OpenRC does not have the ability for 'Running as a daemon' or 'Keeping daemons alive'.
What does this mean for me? Does this mean services won't auto-restart when they crash?


It can do if you configure it to use S6 as a backend, but the default is to let them crash. Other alternatives to OpenRC service management are S6 itself, Runit, busybox, Ubuntu's upstart, initng, and there's a few other things if you look hard enough. I use Runit as init/rc with OpenRC for the boot process myself.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2015 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In short: my opinion.

eudev + openrc works.

My way: i3wm + luks/lvm + eudev + openrc.

Those desctops are overrated. When you loose time and cpu / gpu cycles for useless features + memory wasted. A desctop should provide the basics to start your apps. not fancy bells and whistles ... Even gnome 2 was bloated compared with i3wm ...


systemd is broken by design => see the politics of systemd, a thread here in the forums.

lots and lots of requests taht systemd does not work this or that. in the past and for sure in the future. I usually do not answer systemd related topics. broken by design. I do not have a testbox and I assume systemd will not last very long. Apache openoffice is also dead. openoffice asks now for more developers. last release is over 1 year old lol.


systemd => gnome 3 => sucks since i saw 3.0 and newer also
kde is bloated since 4.x and. and it seems kde goes systemd too.

systemd accoridingly has a mess with config files, too much is changed. and the configs are not really human readable or confusing what i saw.

--

edit: Gnome 3 does not really need systemd at all => see the regularly posts of a few users who get it running on openrc ..

do you really want something to have pid 1 for anything? and what do you do when pid 1 crashes? welcome to the blue screen of death => windows world.
that design is nuts ...
processes should crash, and i have some thing which crash regularly => google-chrome has a memory hole since years and that crashes from time to time. assume your systemd crashes. woops it is pid 1...

the thing is the systemd guys never read about the concepts of unix and why things were designed as they were before systemd.

they also do not care much about hte file system hierarchy standard.

google alos does not care => see android.

---

you can do a standard install with openrc and switch over to systemd later.

I am not sure if switching from systemd to openrc is that easily achieveable ...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
In short:
That
    a) wasn't short, and
    b) totally failed to address either of the OP's two specific and reasonable questions.
which relate directly to the init comparison table in the wiki.
Quote:
I usually do not answer systemd related topics.
56 times to date, by forum search - which seems a lot for someone who doesn't use it.

I've seen you regularly report threads here for far less than this, btw. Your reply was non-responsive to the questions and rapidly devolved into an OT rant, I mean AOO needs developers? Wt# does that have to do with the question? Gnome3? The OP said he didn't see a use for it on this machine? Google and Android? What was the point of all that? Did you actually read the questions? Why not answer them if you're going to take the time to post?
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Ryonez
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks for all the reply's guys.

At this stage I'll use the OpenRC Init system. From what I can see there is no advantage to using systemd on this device.
If I want to play with it later, I'll do it in a virtual machine.

As for daemon restarts, seems like I can take a longer route and create a script to also manage crash handling if need.

tw04l124 wrote:

I am not sure if switching from systemd to openrc is that easily achieveable ...

It's not. I have tried it ages ago, and even with reading into it, that attempt failed. That's why I'm focusing more on if it is really worth it.

ian.au wrote:

On a low-spec laptop I'd go light, either openrc/lxde or openrc /Xfce fwiiw.

Don't know what fwiiw means, but I see the good advice there. I used xfce when I used Gentoo way back when, and after seeing LXDE in use with Raspbian(Raspberry Pie Debian build) I'll stick to xfce.

I'm happy with the knowledge I've received so far.
I'm happy for the the thread to be closed here, but if you feel you have something more to contributed feel free to add it.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez wrote:
Don't know what fwiiw means, but I see the good advice there. I used xfce when I used Gentoo way back when, and after seeing LXDE in use with Raspbian(Raspberry Pie Debian build) I'll stick to xfce.

Sorry, fwiiw=ForWhatItIsWorth - and lxde is minimal out of the box for sure, good luck with your install.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez,

Ryonez wrote:
As for daemon restarts, seems like I can take a longer route and create a script to also manage crash handling if need.

Thats like hanging your door key beside the lock but its your key and your lock.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry for beeing oftopic, but

Quote:
So I'm curious to see what you guys think, and why it isn't being used as Gentoo's default init.


So i gave a bit more than usual rant about systemd.

And you do not see how many systemd topics i have read and not bothered answering at all, because of lack of knowledge, broken by design, whatever... and no really useful docs at all awailable thats why I did not post later. and those 56 posts or whatever you counted, were before I realized answering systemd related topics on my side is completly time waste. And guys usually pick the wrong forum section. or post support issues for KDE git code, come on its git code, unsupportd, from kde overlay? since when are overlays offical supported? is kde anyting more useful so moderators do not move it? I also do not get the point why my reports are not deleted but others are deleted instantly. whatever...

And I usually refrain from answering "questions to myself in other topics" but I thought as this topic is about opinions in the general, why not.


I also want to invite you from giving a reply because I do not want to see another flame war starting in someone else topic...

Original topic starter asked for opinions, and my opinion is as much worth as yours, thats it.


Anyway you are invited to provide more useful / better support to others before giving critisim.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Ryonez,

Ryonez wrote:
As for daemon restarts, seems like I can take a longer route and create a script to also manage crash handling if need.

Thats like hanging your door key beside the lock but its your key and your lock.


Depends on how you do it I guess. I'd probably opt to get the script to alert me on each fail, and to employ a restart limit (I'd make it 3 times). When it hits the limit, I could have it send a 'crit' alert. Something could be written to manage unexpected system shutdowns/reboots as well. Being around to handle every issue is not always possible :)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:

do you really want something to have pid 1 for anything? and what do you do when pid 1 crashes? welcome to the blue screen of death => windows world.
that design is nuts ...
processes should crash, and i have some thing which crash regularly => google-chrome has a memory hole since years and that crashes from time to time. assume your systemd crashes. woops it is pid 1...


I don't see an issue with something having a pid of 1, it's just a number.
When Windows BSODs, something critical to the function of the OS has messed up and windows has caught it. While that screen is active, it's makeing dumps to help with finding the issue. So a bit is actually going on in the background.
With linux, most of the time something f*cks up, all I see is it freeze. I tend not to bother looking for logs because it froze(how can it do anything).
If systemd crash's, what would be the real issue? I far as I can see, you'd just lose the ability to manage services automatically until you started it back up.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez, let me just point you to THIS. I really doubt you could ask a single question that hasn't been aswered by top 5 unique conversations there.
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Ryonez
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Ryonez, let me just point you to THIS. I really doubt you could ask a single question that hasn't been aswered by top 5 unique conversations there.


Thanks. As a computer technician I really enjoy when people point me to a tool I always use. Actually I use/recommend duckduckgo. Wait, here's a link for it


Annoying right?

You did actually help (I didn't know about the site: flag), but god that was aggravating.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PID 1 is special. 1 is init and has some special task, well I only read once about it. So please check the net why and such..

And think about a big monster in your system which can do everything. In comparision imagine smaller junks which are limited.

security wise its awful to create something which such powers. how will you guarantee that it is not abused.

systemd looks like windows 95 to myself. from the structure and everything. and I clearly see that more windows developers joined "gnome" and therefore they created a second windi 95 and the background for it... See it from the point of myself. MSDOS was a bit broken. Windows 3.11 was a bit limited. and windows 95 upwards was kinda a big pile of ducttape. I am forced to use such systems and I do not see any benefits except those BSOD, when I get a new try to recode the same stuff again, rewrite the same text again because Word crashed / windows crashed. I also do not get hte point why It has to be word. I am certified on MS office and regarding staroffice / textmaker / openoffice / libreoffice / wahtever I used in my life to create texts there is no additional benefit except that the MS stuff just is incompatible with the next version, not backwards compatible and a pain in the ass.

Afaik as i read about windows 95 and how it works its clearly as systemd to me todays. so you recreate something which is over 20 years old and never really worked.

Unix dates back to 1960 afaik or even older. so those structures are well thought and proven from universities where those MS structures are just from one company which wants business. It is not about usability, security, its about business.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez,

PID 1 is always owned by root. When that gets compromised, the attcker can do anything on your box.
The bigger the code base running as PID 1, or any root owned process, the bigger the risk of an exploitable bug.

If your webserver is compromised and its running as user apache, the damage is a bit more contained.
The attacker can only do what apache is allowed to do.

Those who do not remember history are condemmed to repeat it.
Microsoft and Red Hat are both trying to achieve vendor lockin. Both will go the way of the Prime, Apollo and others from the same era.
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Ryonez
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you tw04l124 and NeddySeagoon.

I've read the document. The only thing I've got to say to that is the only thing really keeping me on windows are games. When more of the big games get build for linux, that'll be when I fully shift over.

Right I need sleep, So good night :)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You did actually help (I didn't know about the site: flag), but god that was aggravating.

Glad you have found something usefull there. I must confess I've done this in a mocking way on purpose though. And here is why:
Systemd is a neverending story here. It keeps coming back and back again, even though nobody has anything new to say on this matter. All questions have been asked and answered, answers ignored, haters lynched and so on. There is literally no progress in any thread on this matter, it's just the same questions and the same allegations, and the same fu haters again.
And now, when torches finally cooled down and pitchforks started to rust, you're asking... (wait for it...)

why it isn't being used as Gentoo's default init.

I guess those who make the stage3 tarball are still with haters.
Code:

                                         )  (  (    (
                                         (  )  () @@  )  (( (
                                     (      (  )( @@  (  )) ) (
                                   (    (  ( ()( /---\   (()( (
     _______                            )  ) )(@ !O O! )@@  ( ) ) )
    <   ____)                      ) (  ( )( ()@ \ o / (@@@@@ ( ()( )
 /--|  |(  o|                     (  )  ) ((@@(@@ !o! @@@@(@@@@@)() (
|   >   \___|                      ) ( @)@@)@ /---\-/---\ )@@@@@()( )
|  /---------+                    (@@@@)@@@( // /-----\ \\ @@@)@@@@@(  .
| |    \ =========______/|@@@@@@@@@@@@@(@@@ // @ /---\ @ \\ @(@@@(@@@ .  .
|  \   \\=========------\|@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ O @@@ /-\ @@@ O @@(@@)@@ @   .
|   \   \----+--\-)))           @@@@@@@@@@ !! @@@@ % @@@@ !! @@)@@@ .. .
|   |\______|_)))/             .    @@@@@@ !! @@ /---\ @@ !! @@(@@@ @ . .
 \__==========           *        .    @@ /MM  /\O   O/\  MM\ @@@@@@@. .
    |   |-\   \          (       .      @ !!!  !! \-/ !!  !!! @@@@@ .
    |   |  \   \          )      .     .  @@@@ !!     !!  .(. @.  .. .
    |   |   \   \        (    /   .(  . \)). ( |O  )( O! @@@@ . )      .
    |   |   /   /         ) (      )).  ((  .) !! ((( !! @@ (. ((. .   .
    |   |  /   /   ()  ))   ))   .( ( ( ) ). ( !!  )( !! ) ((   ))  ..
    |   |_<   /   ( ) ( (  ) )   (( )  )).) ((/ |  (  | \(  )) ((. ).
____<_____\\__\__(___)_))_((_(____))__(_(___.oooO_____Oooo.(_(_)_)((_

Sorry, couldn't find better art for this brand new flamewar about to happen
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:


why it isn't being used as Gentoo's default init.

I guess those who make the stage3 tarball are still with haters.
Code:

CUT

Sorry, couldn't find better art for this brand new flamewar about to happen


It doesn't need to become a flamewar.
NeddySeagoon wrote:
I'll ignore the flamebait in your first post and ask that other respondents do too, or this thread will be yet another init systems flamefest to get locked.

Please leave any mention of a flamewar out of this thread from now on, I am learning things and I would rather that continue.

I asked this question more in the sense of "why is this apparently super fancy init system that even ubuntu is gonna use, not the default?".
I realize that certain things are default for a reason, it's one of the things I hope to learn here.

If this keeps popping up, maybe a Sticky thread would be a good idea. I did look in Frequently Asked Questions before I made a post in here.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I will mainly say is that I switched to systemd a few months ago and it is working well for me. The only issue I have had so far is that sometimes with freezes (not related to systemd) I am finding the last journal entries (sometimes hours worth) are corrupted and are thus thrown out when the system reboots. So it's not easy to see what caused the freeze. However I haven't spent even a minute yet researching this (it's not high on the old priority list right now) so it may have a simple fix or be due to user error and also I'm not even 100% sure that I would have more data using syslog (which I could also run along with the journal but which I chose not to do).

Why did I switch to systemd? Because I couldn't find any real reason not to basically. To be honest I barely care whether I run openRC or systemd. The thing I was starting to notice however with openrc is that it seems to increasingly mean fighting against upstream. This is especially true with Gnome 3 (though there are hacks to make it work) and it's also a little bit true with KDE where logind is being increasingly used and expected (though everything essentially works now). I also see kdbus in the horizon and IMHO believe the writing is on the wall in that it's going to get a lot harder to avoid systemd in the future. So this is a choice I think a lot of people are going to have to make in the future and I made mine -- at least for the moment.

That said I don't want to participate in any flamewars over this. I totally respect the Gentoo way of allowing choice and I hope both choices are made available to everyone going forward. I think this is one of the nice things about Gentoo. It's one of the few which officially support both and do not try to force one or the other upon you.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ryonez,

systemd does not add anything to the stage3 tarball, nor to a 'default' Gentoo install, if there is such a thing.

One of systemds stated aims is to make all distros the same. (I'm paraphrasing a little)
Well, that works for binary distros, they all become Red Hat clones except for the branding but it does not work for source based distros like Gentoo.

Being somewhat cruel to the binary distros, they are little different to Windows. The users of any one distro all get the same packages built the same way.

Gentoo is a toolkit you use to build your own distro.
Your Gentoo is your distro. You build it your way. You can have systemd if you want it.

Look into Gentoos support for package sets. If I cared to write the sets I can have Gentoo do
Code:
emerge @debian
emerge @ubuntu

and so on.

My Gentoo is not going to become a Red Hat clone but you need to make your choices.
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NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
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Ryonez
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't believe it that in my searching I missed the most obvious page :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

Must be getting tired.
I find it interesting that Gentoo was the 3rd major distro to release systemd in the repo. Gentoo is also the only one not to have it enabled by default even though you could.
After reading the opinions in this thread as well as toughly reading the wiki page, I'm more inclined to leave systemd alone.
It's doing a lot more than I thought, and I'm not comfortable with it.

I should really sleep now >.<
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