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Tony0945
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv, are you deliberately derailing the technical discussion? Just asking.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
And it is a professional opinion, not a personal one:

This is a lie, because any professional opinion is based on

- professional behavior, which induces
- professional ethics exercised as well:

Never ever consider any professional opinion, if your independence is endangered,
like here: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7790860.html#7790860
Quote:
though at some point I'll have to counter his odious abuse of process in trying to get me kicked out of the Foundation

There is no professional opinion if not done in a professional manner.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Split from "The Politics of systemd".

steveL wrote:
I wouldn't hold out much hope; Hubbs is essentially incompetent, in my professional opinion, and covers it by appearing like a nice guy to everyone; until you get specific about the codebase. (At which point you get the runaround, if you're lucky, ime.)
In short, the reasoning behind splitting this post off is that I expected to need to do so later if I had not done so now.

Given that certain parties are evidently upset by the use of the term "incompetent" in this context in reference to williamh, I will explain why I did not consider that use of that term in that context to warrant splitting off of that post in itself.

As it currently stands, Wiktionary defines incompetent thus (with the examples removed for the sake of brevity):
Quote:
Adjective
incompetent
  1. Unskilled, lacking normally expected degree of ability.
  2. Unable to make rational decisions, insane or otherwise cognitively impaired.
  3. (medicine) an incompetent cervix is one that opens too early in pregnancy, provoking the baby to be born.
I had not taken stevel's comments to indicate that he thought williamh to be insane, striking sense 2. As williamh is a separate individual, not an anatomical substructure, sense 3 is likewise not in consideration. However, sense 1 seems to neatly fit his usage in this context. As such, in my opinion, he was rendering the opinion that williamh lacks unspecified skills which stevel would expect of someone maintaining OpenRC. While that point is obviously open to argument the claim itself should be taken as a prompt to ask for clarification, not a call to a bullypulpit. In short the appropriate response is to ask why stevel holds the opinion that williamh is lacking necessary skills, what those skills are and what could change his perception of williamh's abilities such that he would consider him fit for the role.

mv wrote:
Holding an opinion (on technical matters) is different from personally attacking people.
True, however, you apparently inferred a personal attack where none, yet, existed.

Tony0945 wrote:
SteveL, mv, enough!

We can all read. We know who is right and who is wrong. Just stop. My ancestors came from Sicily where the vendetta is an art form. The only way to quit is to quit. Not get even, just quit. Just be the better man and don't respond.
Thank you, well put.

miket wrote:
In this forum topic, we have identified three things that are deadly:

  • Systemd, onerous because of its development model, its opaque specification, its house-of-cards set of components hastily designed and assembed, its sneering dismissal of well-trusted current practice, and the obnoxious way it forces its way into acceptance,
  • Current trends in the development of OpenRC which too often emulate bad traits of the systemd model,
  • A subcurrent of bickering over perceived insults.


I address this last point. I don't know the history of the conflict among a few of the frequent commenters in these forums, and I don't really care. I suspect I speak for a lot of people. The back and forth gets to be awfully tedious.

The most recent commenters here (including me) have seemed to want to avoid tickling the dragon's tail of the Thought Police. Is it really a personal attack when the one "attacking" is not actually hurling personal insults and taunts but rather addressing the actual practices and work product of another?

What we can do without is the defensiveness and snarkiness that pop up all too often. Here's an idea: when you read a new comment pointed accusingly at yourself, respond only to technical points and drop any mention of that commenter's comportment in the forums. Speak the truth but also think twice about any potshots in your posts.

Let's not contemplate any kind of banning of people or thoughts. Let's do think of improving the signal-to-noise ratio.
Another well put post, I almost feel compelled to apologize for splitting it off with the posts that evidently inspired its creation, as it does tie in with the main topic from whence it was split. Though, given the somewhat stronger tie to the more immediate dispute, it seemed more logical to include it in the split than to leave it in its original topic.

There may well be other posts which should be split into this topic or another entirely, if so, please report them.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
the claim itself should be taken as a prompt to ask for clarification
There cannot be any clarification from a man not doing the basic self reflection. A symptom of it, he expected "why" questions and not just what competence ...

desultory wrote:
you apparently inferred a personal attack where none, yet, existed.
How that sure? Maybe your own opinion and extensive analytical work about a spitten "incompetence" shed a white light on a spot where it was not. If you read https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7790860.html#7790860
steveL wrote:
though at some point I'll have to counter his odious abuse of process in trying to get me kicked out of the Foundation
it is clear steveL is not only attacking a matter of competence but of character also. This mixing in one thread about systemd is not sober escpecially when claiming
steveL wrote:
it is a professional opinion, not a personal one

By the way, a corrupted character, who follows his hidden agenda by abusing his powers, might well be a competent programmer when delivering bad code as it might well be intended by him. Thus you simply cannot examine competence and character at the same time. Only dilletante ...
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
desultory wrote:
the claim itself should be taken as a prompt to ask for clarification
There cannot be any clarification from a man not doing the basic self reflection. A symptom of it, he expected "why" questions and not just what competence ...
So, your opinion of him is your justification for rationalizing that his opinion was necessarily a personal attack, which to you justified your personal attacks against him without ever attempting to verify that your opinion of his opinion was justified?
ulenrich wrote:
desultory wrote:
you apparently inferred a personal attack where none, yet, existed.
How that sure? Maybe your own opinion and extensive analytical work about a spitten "incompetence" shed a white light on a spot where it was not. If you read https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7790860.html#7790860
steveL wrote:
though at some point I'll have to counter his odious abuse of process in trying to get me kicked out of the Foundation
it is clear steveL is not only attacking a matter of competence but of character also. This mixing in one thread about systemd is not sober escpecially when claiming
steveL wrote:
it is a professional opinion, not a personal one
I have been aware of that episode for quite some time now, so it is not new information to me, nor rather obviously is it new to stevel. Being capable of rendering an impartial opinion of another individual despite having previous dealings with them whether positive, neutral, or actively negative is not some sort of mythical superpower to be dismissed and disbelieved as pure fancy; it is instead a skill to cultivate, whether or not you can fully achieve it. Further, "is not sober" is a rather interesting turn of phrase in this context.
ulenrich wrote:
By the way, a corrupted character, who follows his hidden agenda by abusing his powers, might well be a competent programmer when delivering bad code as it might well be intended by him. Thus you simply cannot examine competence and character at the same time. Only dilletante ...
So, it is your considered opinion that stating the opinion that someone is not as skilled as you would expect for someone in their role is a personal attack, whereas the implication that the same individual is engaging in deliberate sabotage is not? Pray tell, how did you form that opinion?
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@desultory, You totally miss the point: It is not about the opinion of steveL.
I tried to discuss his opinion in terms I think are constructive in this case at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7793544.html#7793544

But about a qualification he insisted most explicitly possible:
steveL wrote:
.... Hubbs is incompetent ... professional opinion ... professional opinion ... I won't apologise ... professional opinion ...
at https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7793744.html#7793744

Also I think that trying to discuss charakter and competence at the same time is impossible to do truthfully like in quantum physics speed and location. Although everyone does it every day. But not everybody qualifies it "professional".
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ulenrich, I would find it most refreshing if you focused less on dissecting people's thought processes and more on the actual technical issues. There are a lot of nuts-and-bolts issues to address, especially those concerned with a bit of software that Gentoo users need to work right: OpenRC. We need good documentation, especially in terms of the proper use cases of the software for people with odd requirements. There are many committers to the codebase, including four distinct committers in the past month. Most of this maintenance is relatively minor, but, as noted in the original thread, there are discussions to add new features that the wider community would likely to find to be overcomplicating and somewhat fragile. We need to hav discussions about those things.

I have been calling for a wider discussion of the use, documentation, and development of OpenRC. Comments directed to that development are helpful; dissection of people's motives is not. Please take this to heart.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hardly ever saw any discussion on a topic which did not lead to some personal stuff.

Maybe it is just time to stop posting on this case and the thread is over, going on and on with different guys just really does not help anyone in the end.

I stopped reading the systemd topic because it was just going around and around with not much news anyway. Some posters were easy to follow others not really and as I am not that geek to have a deeper understanding of that crap called systemd, I came to the conclusion that it is broken by design as it seems and I will not bother with such things at all.

I expected some insight or deeper understandning of systemd but after page 10 or 20, it just repeats without any more insights ... And you can also expect peeps to be frustrated on the one side, others beeing in favour of it because its awesome and others just having some other perspective which clashes at the end. Sometimes it is just worth to not post a reply to a maybe offense in your direction. If someone said in the past i gave a bad advise, true but I did not went on and commented after that.
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2015 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
@desultory, You totally miss the point: It is not about the opinion of steveL.
Actually, on that point, we agree. This discussion has barely touched upon steveL's opinions as such, it is quite focused on the opinions others have about an opinion he stated, opinions others have of him, and how those same other individuals avoid gathering any data which risks altering their opinions.
ulenrich wrote:
Also I think that trying to discuss charakter and competence at the same time is impossible to do truthfully like in quantum physics speed and location. Although everyone does it every day. But not everybody qualifies it "professional".
Considering that one typically drives the other, positing them to be somehow mutually exclusory seems rather odd.
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a while I lost interest to discuss the obvious any further, but there was a follow up from krinn in forums feedback ...
desultory wrote:
ulenrich wrote:
Also I think that trying to discuss charakter and competence at the same time is impossible to do truthfully like in quantum physics speed and location. Although everyone does it every day. But not everybody qualifies it "professional".
Considering that one typically drives the other, positing them to be somehow mutually exclusory seems rather odd.

In forums feedback krinn said:
krinn wrote:
You didn't enjoy desultory's answer, and this is an attempt to continue what desultory has end.

In case my explains would help you understand and close it for real
- You don't have to be a tennis player to have an opinion (good or bad) on any tennis player. It is your opinion.
- And if you are paid to be play tennis (even you are the poorest tennis player on earth) : you are a pro tennis player : and your opinion is then a professional opinion (this is not limit to tennis player, a journalist opinion may also be a professional opinion).

We agree on that: Also the most miserable journalist may have his professional opinion, despite the fact everybody else would have a more profound opinion. Beside the competence of the journalist or tennis player in this case there are two more factors coming into play:
- moral
- logic
krinn wrote:
Your professional behavior which induces professional ethics exercised as well is irrelevant to a professional opinion, it is relevant only to the value of that professional opinion ; even of bad value, a professional opinion is a professional opinion.
Never ever consider any professional opinion, if your independence is endangered, is bad advise, you should in contrary take great care of it when considering it. Anything that would help you decide the value of an opinion should be considered.


1. This case of giving a "professional opinion" seen from a logical standpoint:
If you claim, like steveL did throughout the course of various threads:
a) Hubbs has a bad charakter
b) Hubbs is in favour of systemd
c) Hubbs made openrc look like a bad option
If Hubbs reached all of his personal goals you cannot say Hubbs is a bad developer.
- if all of above holds true and
- if Hubbs got it all hidden over the years
- and only thanks to his "professional" view
steveL could unhide it for our eyes to see,
why does steveL lie about the developer qualities of Hubbs?
Hubbs must have been a genious of a developer all these years
to open source program and hide his intentions behind a veil nevertheless.

2.) On moral grounds (if you are a professional who wants to be respected):
a) You just keep your mouth shut if you know your personal feelings might mixin
b) You talk to the person himself. You won't use a forum you know the person you attack cannot see.

I generally hate to see developers being exposed to such attacks in a forum. They might have a career elsewhere being attached to this shitstorm.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"shitstorm" is right.

I'm not going to dignify it with a response, since it's full of poisonous statements about me, and wilful misunderstanding seems to be about the only thing ulenrich is consistent at, from what I've seen.

OFC his motivations are pure as snow, and nothing at all to do with recent disagreements elsewhere; no, he's just interested in standing up for the poor developers who apparently need him to fight some mythological battle for him, against the evil steveL who has zero power over Gentoo..

I'll get back to mrbassie on my actual opinion, when this shitstorm isn't being stirred quite so much.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@steveL
My question, why do you lie about Hubbs,
comes about 4 weeks earlier than
your question, do I work for Redhat.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

Your phraseology, even allowing for English not being your native language, shows that you have already made up your mind and do not wish to be confused by any information that may challenge your position.

Such provocation and intolerance of others opinions is how religious wars start.

Just in case it really is a problem with your English, you should not use the word "lie" if you are really seeking further information.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deleted - I give up on this ...
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Last edited by ulenrich on Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
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jonathan183
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Hubbs must have been a genious of a developer all these years
to open source program and hide his intentions behind a veil nevertheless.
If the captain of a ship steers it onto the rocks because he wanted to run parallel to another ship I doubt most people would consider that genious ...
Appearing to restrict use options without good reason makes little sense for someone leading any development in Gentoo, but without knowing the master plan it can be difficult to understand ... but if it's brown and smells bad don't be shocked at the label ... :P

steveL wrote:
I'll get back to mrbassie on my actual opinion
... I'll be interested in this as well, but I'll wait until the tinnitus dies down ;)
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
steveL probably is one of the strongest when fighting his stand in this forum. I don't get it why forum administrators push on the weeker participants even needlessly. Guarding the firebug ...
Perhaps you should consider what that implies about your behavior, especially if you think that steveL is such a bad actor.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people here throw big words, but show zero action. It appears to be a pattern and is not even remotely related to "professionalism". If someone thinks he can do a better job at anything, he better start throwing patches around and make himself useful. Leaning back and ranting is not going to change anything.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah right; join the cult, or we'll stick our fingers in our ears and pretend we can't hear you, Na na na.

That'll make things better. /s
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich,

First of all, my Forums Admin badge here has nothing to do with my contribution to this discission.
I suppose I could register another account but that would get me banned :)

On the topic of professional opinions, there is a whole spectrum of professional opinions to choose from.
For example, I have been invited to give a professional opinion in court, under oath. I would have been paid for my time too.
However, when the lawer heard my professional opinion and found out it did not support their side of the case, I didn't get the job.
I guess they hired some else. Opinions, professional or otherwise, need not be correct. Even then, as my real life example illustrates, correct is relative.
The point is that professionals need not agree on an opinion. That does not detract from any of the individual professional opinions.

I didn't see anything I posted as an attack on anyone.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Yeah right; join the cult, or we'll stick our fingers in our ears and pretend we can't hear you, Na na na.

That'll make things better. /s

That's how opensource works. You either get actually involved (not just by talking) or people will not care much about such rants (for good reason). A rant is much more powerful if you have a history of contributions or even a concrete patch to show. Otherwise it just comes off as being a wisenheimer or worst case even trolling.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
For a while I lost interest to discuss the obvious any further, but there was a follow up from krinn in forums feedback ...

It was not a follow up, it was another attempt to explains what you seem to not get.

ulenrich wrote:
Beside the competence of the journalist or tennis player in this case there are two more factors coming into play:
- moral
- logic

Fanatics have also opinions that may not be logic, and the morality of an opinion is base on the reader's morality. If i say "we should eat cats, that's tasty meat!", it is your morality that would define if my opinion is immoral or not, and my opinion could be moral for anyone reading it that have no problem to eat cats.
All what you said next is bullshit. It is your vision of how you see its value. Nothing could remove the fact it's a professional opinion ; you could say whatever you wish, nobody has any doubt steveL is a professional.
So when you say it's a lie and it is not a professional opinion, because of this or that or whatever, you are wrong. Bad, or good, it's one.

You've made a report, you've been answered (while i myself totally agree it should, nothing is written anywhere saying any mods decisions could be appeal), while the answer need no appeal because it was clear, you still making sounds and bug everyone for the same reason.
Now instead of bugging everyone for days when you've been explain why you were wrong ; shouldn't you end it until your next report??? (i have clearly no doubt you would jump very soon on another "stupid reason" to report anyone who has ever said anything against redhat/fedora/pottering...)
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hasufell
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
Nothing could remove the fact it's a professional opinion ; you could say whatever you wish, nobody has any doubt steveL is a professional.
So when you say it's a lie and it is not a professional opinion, because of this or that or whatever, you are wrong. Bad, or good, it's one.

Uhm, first of all you shouldn't speak for other people when you don't know their opinion.

Second, it's irrelevant who is a "professional" and who is not. What matters are arguments. But when they are embedded in bragging and denunciation (which can be legitimate), then one should have a very good position/reason for that form... if it's just for the rant, then that is very poor and will not help anyone.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hasufell wrote:
That's how opensource works.

The sad bit is you have so little social awareness, you cannot even see the substantive point being made, let alone deal with it.
hasufell wrote:
Some people here throw big words, but show zero action. It appears to be a pattern and is not even remotely related to "professionalism". If someone thinks he can do a better job at anything, he better start throwing patches around and make himself useful. Leaning back and ranting is not going to change anything.

The truly sad part is you have so little self-insight, you did not even read what you were posting before pressing Submit, and ask yourself: Just how "professional" is it, to criticize with the weasel "someone", rather than speaking directly?

Talking that up into a "pattern" is simply apparatchik-behaviour, which is a shame, since up until you started your campaign of self-deluded criticism of me on these forums (about 2.5 -3 years ago, that I recall: coincidentally? when I first started having to grit my teeth and say nothing as Hubbs cold-shouldered yet another user in #openrc, until they gave up and left in disgust) you were always on-point on the developer mailing-list, if somewhat austere.

Just to let you know: you can still give up on this kind of behaviour. You should know that apparatchiks are never happy; merely temporarily ego-satiated.
My advice would be that it's better to backtrack after two years, than wait 25 to realise being an apparatchik is an ultimately empty existence.

That won't appeal if you're a sociopath, or a high-level functional autistic. In the latter case, you should be aware that you still have feelings, even if you can't relate to anyone else's.
OFC I have no clue whether any of those labels apply, or don't, and I don't much care. It's none of my business, though it may be yours.

Since you're happy to dissect my psychology, and lay claim to expertise over my motivations, presumably you don't mind at all.

I just don't much care, either, for your amateur-hour appropriation of the word "professional", as if sticking it in suddenly lends authority, leaning on your dev-badge to make it appear the natural conclusion.
Anyone who's spent more than an hour reviewing the dev-ML archives, knows that'd be a risible, if understandable, mistake to make.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, he is dragging discussions onto a personal level.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of what you say is absolutely inappropriate, aggressive or otherwise insulting... so I'll not comment on any of these baits (although it is quite interesting why you act like that). However...
steveL wrote:
[...] since up until you started your campaign of self-deluded criticism of me on these forums [...] you were always on-point on the developer mailing-list, if somewhat austere.

Unlike you... I have realized that it didn't change anything. So I stopped.
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