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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone Else Driving an Electric Car? Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
You may or may not be following, but the new Leaf isn't going to be available in the US until next year.
I really wish that topics one posted to would reappear in "View Your Posts" if they're resurrected.

I had read that, too. Engineering scuttlebutt is that 40kWh was a practical limit for Nissan's passive cooling design. The 60kWh version is rumored to have active cooling (pump circulated coolant) and thus is a larger departure from their existing battery pack design. It's also rumored to support 100kW DC fast charging, which keeps it in the same "charge from 20% to 80% in half an hour" realm as the pre-2018 models.

I test drove the 2018 model in December and was generally pleased:
  • Road noise at freeway speeds was noticeably reduced.
  • Somewhat annoying coupling to bumps in the road was dramatically reduced. The Nissan rep told me that the suspension had been a major area of focus, that they had even brought in outside talent to tune it.
  • The 110kW inverter (vs 80kW on the previous version) gives a modest boost in acceleration.
  • The styling is less "out there" than the previous version.
Otherwise, it felt like a Leaf.

- John
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have a dish at this :

Environmental Science & Technology wrote:

Life Cycle Assessment of Connected and Automated Vehicles: Sensing and Computing Subsystem and Vehicle Level Effects

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.7b04576

Obviously selfdriving cars ( electric I have to assume ) causes more environmental damage. A shocker! ( spelled nuclear pp G IV+)
EDIT: The damage being in form of polluting the planet.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyone Else Driving an Electric Car? Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
pjp wrote:
You may or may not be following, but the new Leaf isn't going to be available in the US until next year.
I really wish that topics one posted to would reappear in "View Your Posts" if they're resurrected.

I had read that, too. Engineering scuttlebutt is that 40kWh was a practical limit for Nissan's passive cooling design. The 60kWh version is rumored to have active cooling (pump circulated coolant) and thus is a larger departure from their existing battery pack design. It's also rumored to support 100kW DC fast charging, which keeps it in the same "charge from 20% to 80% in half an hour" realm as the pre-2018 models.

I test drove the 2018 model in December and was generally pleased:
  • Road noise at freeway speeds was noticeably reduced.
  • Somewhat annoying coupling to bumps in the road was dramatically reduced. The Nissan rep told me that the suspension had been a major area of focus, that they had even brought in outside talent to tune it.
  • The 110kW inverter (vs 80kW on the previous version) gives a modest boost in acceleration.
  • The styling is less "out there" than the previous version.
Otherwise, it felt like a Leaf.

- John
Unless I'm missing something, it looks like 40kWh is still the only option. I'm curious how much more the 60kWh will cost. I think the styling change to unobtrusively mediocre was a big improvement :). Visually it appears to be a larger vehicle, which may help it compete against the "original" Prius (they've got way too many models -- something like five with a dozen or so combined variations).

There aren't many options differentiating the S/SV/SL. But the S with Charge Pack ($1,590) comes to $32,465. I just have this mental block with sending away more than $20k for a car. I didn't like it when I used credit, but deciding to not use credit makes car buying an extremely different experience.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes; should've said the "upcoming" 60kWh (might be 64kWh) version. It's rumored to come at an approximately $5k premium which, incidentally, is about what it costs to replace my Leaf's 24kWh pack.

The SV is fairly well differentiated from the S, adding alloy wheels, heat pump, better stereo, touch screen, and navigation. The SL, not so much.

I'm personally allergic to new cars. I paid $11k for my then two-year-old 2013 Leaf SV, which looked and drove (and smelled) like new.

- John
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want an electric car.
I don't want big brother with the electric car.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
Have a dish at this :

Environmental Science & Technology wrote:

Life Cycle Assessment of Connected and Automated Vehicles: Sensing and Computing Subsystem and Vehicle Level Effects

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.est.7b04576

Obviously selfdriving cars ( electric I have to assume ) causes more environmental damage. A shocker! ( spelled nuclear pp G IV+)
EDIT: The damage being in form of polluting the planet.
That doesn't appear to be what that paper says (or at least the abstract). What it does appear to say is:
  • Autonomous driving equipment uses non-zero power. Shocker there.
  • The equipment more than makes up for that additional power by driving more efficiently than humans do, resulting in a net reduction of power use.
- John
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Yes; should've said the "upcoming" 60kWh (might be 64kWh) version. It's rumored to come at an approximately $5k premium which, incidentally, is about what it costs to replace my Leaf's 24kWh pack.

The SV is fairly well differentiated from the S, adding alloy wheels, heat pump, better stereo, touch screen, and navigation. The SL, not so much.

I'm personally allergic to new cars. I paid $11k for my then two-year-old 2013 Leaf SV, which looked and drove (and smelled) like new.

- John
In the grand scheme of things, I suppose $5k isn't horrible. But I doubt it would be an option for the S, and the SV starts at $32.5k. On your list of S vs. SV differences, the heat pump would be the only option I'd want. And the touchscreen a huge negative, but those are now virtually unavoidable.

I really want to go with a used car, but the prices are shockingly high IMO. And certified barely budge from new prices. I suppose it just depends what you're after and what you can find. For a like new 2y/o Leaf, I'd pay $11k.


eccerr0r wrote:
I want an electric car.
I don't want big brother with the electric car.
:lol:

At this point I'd settle for the incremental improvement of the automotive industry seeking treatment for its touchscreen fetish.

I can't figure out who thinks a lack of tactile feedback (of using a physical knob or button) while driving is a good interface. Witness luxury Lexus that disables features while driving. Brilliant.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want all non Tesla electric cars out of the fast lane on the freeway.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm too lazy to search, but I want one of those cars that Richard Hammond wrecked on The Grand Tour. Muso, it can stay in the fast lane. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's also the BMW i8 or something like that. And I saw something about an eHog. I wonder if they're going to take a page out of the auto industry and broadcast the obnoxiousness. Which is the only reason 99% of them were bought by obnoxholes in the first place.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
There's also the BMW i8 or something like that. And I saw something about an eHog. I wonder if they're going to take a page out of the auto industry and broadcast the obnoxiousness. Which is the only reason 99% of them were bought by obnoxholes in the first place.


These guys?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:lol:

Well, especially them.

But anyone removing the baffles because they think they're / it is cool. Or think that it saves lives.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
I'm too lazy to search, but I want one of those cars that Richard Hammond wrecked on The Grand Tour. Muso, it can stay in the fast lane. :wink:


It's a Rimac. Now it's gotten another version I think.

http://www.rimac-automobili.com/en/supercars/concept_one/
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

patrix_neo wrote:
Old School wrote:
I'm too lazy to search, but I want one of those cars that Richard Hammond wrecked on The Grand Tour. Muso, it can stay in the fast lane. :wink:


It's a Rimac. Now it's gotten another version I think.

http://www.rimac-automobili.com/en/supercars/concept_one/

Just what the world needs: a Croatian sports car.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting (and somewhat surprising) news: the Tesla Model 3 uses permanent magnet motors.

- John
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Last edited by John R. Graham on Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chevy uses them in the Volt & Bolt (according wikipedia).

It will be interesting to see how the ecoterrorists respond.


Touchscreenification is pushing me toward antiques.

Sure it is a bit of a hassle in bad weather, but at least crank-to-start is a physical interface and doesn't use a <colorful metaphor> touchscreen!
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bad choice, since most rare earth comes from bucket-head land (China).
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Akkara wrote:
John R. Graham wrote:
EPA calculates something they call MPGe (Equivalent Miles Per Gallon) which is based on the cost of electricity and cost of gas and how good the mileage of a gas car would have to be to achieve equivalent cost.

Pardon me while I take a small rant-ish detour:

What is it with the govt types and their constant inventing of obfuscatory units to measure things in? Why?? The price of electricity varies *widely* across the country. And so does the price of gas. Why not use the actual units that matter, those being meters per joule or miles per KWh. Or better yet, their reciprocals: joules per meter or the related KWh per mile or metric equivalent. Then one can easily calculate what the cost will be based on how far they drive and the local cost of electricity, no obscure guesswork necessary.
...
I have been meaning to correct a misunderstanding that I had of the definition of MPGe resulting in a misstatement above. In fact, the EPA was more analytical about the definition. They based it on the amount of energy that is in a gallon of gasoline, which is 33.7kWh, and the number of miles an electric vehicle will go on that much energy. I think my misunderstanding caused Akkara to waste a perfectly good rant. :oops:

I now have 68k miles on my 2013 Leaf. Remaining battery capacity (of the original 24kWh) is now 19.2kWh, which means it will apparently easily meet its minimum guaranteed capacity throughout the 8 year / 100k mile warranty period. Since my understanding is that degradation is more related to the number of cycles rather than the amount of energy moved in and out of the battery, I try to deep cycle the pack. I can do two days' worth of commuting on a single charge if I don't run very many errands.

- John
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
In fact, the EPA was more analytical about the definition. They based it on the amount of energy that is in a gallon of gasoline, which is 33.7kWh, and the number of miles an electric vehicle will go on that much energy.
That's pretty cool. Thanks for the update.

John R. Graham wrote:
I now have 68k miles on my 2013 Leaf. Remaining battery capacity (of the original 24kWh) is now 19.2kWh, which means it will apparently easily meet its minimum guaranteed capacity throughout the 8 year / 100k mile warranty period. Since my understanding is that degradation is more related to the number of cycles rather than the amount of energy moved in and out of the battery, I try to deep cycle the pack. I can do two days' worth of commuting on a single charge if I don't run very many errands.
Does that degradation from 24kWh reduce how far you can go on a single charge? I'm wondering about the practical implications later in its life. Unless prices of batteries have dropped drastically, that would seem to be equivalent of an engine replacement.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:

John R. Graham wrote:
I now have 68k miles on my 2013 Leaf. Remaining battery capacity (of the original 24kWh) is now 19.2kWh, which means it will apparently easily meet its minimum guaranteed capacity throughout the 8 year / 100k mile warranty period. Since my understanding is that degradation is more related to the number of cycles rather than the amount of energy moved in and out of the battery, I try to deep cycle the pack. I can do two days' worth of commuting on a single charge if I don't run very many errands.
Does that degradation from 24kWh reduce how far you can go on a single charge? I'm wondering about the practical implications later in its life. Unless prices of batteries have dropped drastically, that would seem to be equivalent of an engine replacement.

It will do. It is the equivalent of slowly filling your petrol tank up with foam, so less volume for petrol/charge. in theory it is just replacing the battery but in practice the disposal of such things are next to non-existent and the price of a replacement isn't cheap. Now this extra 8-10year big payout might be offset by the cheaper running I have personally not done the numbers as there is no disposal in the UK (I have done the number of infrastructure and that it where I am not impressed with successive gov'n here in the UK... doubling of generation AND distribution is needed here in the next decade....)
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
might be offset by the cheaper running
I've read that, but naturally I'm skeptical. It has often seemed like industry marketing or cult recruiting :). Obviously no engine maintenance. But honestly, that should be low anyway. For now, maybe it is cheaper to charge vs. fill with gas (is that sustainable, or an early adopter benefit?). Brakes would be about the same. Yes, I know the engine breaking, but I wouldn't expect there to be a big difference except for hyper-milers. Otherwise, tires, shocks/struts, alignments. What about fluids or air filters in an EV (are there any)? I'm guessing there is still a transmission of some sort to transfer power to he wheels? For AWD, I've also had differential maintenance performed. Most of that I would expect to have some comparable item on an EV. Obviously engine oil and once and a while, coolant/anti-freeze. That's about all the maintenance I can recall.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
For now, maybe it is cheaper to charge vs. fill with gas (is that sustainable, or an early adopter benefit?).
Right now my "fuel" costs, when I pay at all, are about half of what I paid with the 50MPG Prius. I don't see any trends that would cause my electricity costs to double, but gas prices are on the rise. In fact, I have available to me special "off peak" electricity pricing which would further reduce my charging costs by about another 25%. Have to install another electric meter to get that rate, so there are start-up costs. Right now the payback for the installation costs isn't that compelling, but it would be if, for instance, we acquired a 2nd electric car.

pjp wrote:
Obviously no engine maintenance. But honestly, that should be low anyway.
Main engine maintenance items these days (as tune-ups are a thing of the past with modern engines) are oil changes (engine and transmission) and air filter changes. These are gone with a pure electric. In addition, there's a non-obvious one. The engine vibration takes a toll on the whole car. Also there's the grit that is attracted to the light coat of oil that even new internal combustion engines out-gas: it gets on and in everything.

pjp wrote:
Brakes would be about the same. Yes, I know the engine breaking, but I wouldn't expect there to be a big difference except for hyper-milers.
Actually, not true. Even my Prius essentially didn't use brake pads. We went nearly 300k miles on the original set. I expect a pure electric with its larger motor to exhibit this characteristic even more so.

pjp wrote:
I'm guessing there is still a transmission of some sort to transfer power to he wheels?
For some reason, it's called a gearbox when there's only a single speed. Lack of clutch / torque converter, shifters / bands, and multiple gear ratios means it's very simple and maintenance free. It's sealed: there's no gear oil change. Also, Tesla has recently completed a 1 million mile life test on the Model 3 propulsion unit (power electronics, motor, and gearbox). When they tore it down, it looked new inside.

Tires, alignments, shocks, brake fluid flush, wiper blades, cabin air filter are all a wash when comparing electric vs. internal combustion. Except...that vibration thing. My expectation is that all moving parts will last considerably longer in the lower vibration environment. There's some precedent for expecting this to be true. In my other hobby, a Hartzell controllable pitch propeller is rated for much lower hours TBO (Time Before Overhaul) in piston engine applications vs. turbine engine applications.

- John
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I drive a moped. 0,3 litres a 10km. And I breath less doing so...
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's 33.3km/L. Converting to imperial units, that's 78mi/gal. The Leaf has that beat at 115MPGe.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Right now my "fuel" costs, when I pay at all, are about half of what I paid with the 50MPG Prius. I don't see any trends that would cause my electricity costs to double, but gas prices are on the rise. In fact, I have available to me special "off peak" electricity pricing which would further reduce my charging costs by about another 25%. Have to install another electric meter to get that rate, so there are start-up costs. Right now the payback for the installation costs isn't that compelling, but it would be if, for instance, we acquired a 2nd electric car.
My main thinking is when there's enough load on the grid to cause a problem, something like A/C during summer. I'm also thinking of artificial increases. Early when the Prius came out, one of the "selling points" was spending less on fuel. Not long after that, some places brought up the idea of charging per mile rather than per gallon. I think we're quite a way off from that. I also suspect that there won't be much preparation to handle the initial transition.

John R. Graham wrote:
Main engine maintenance items these days (as tune-ups are a thing of the past with modern engines) are oil changes (engine and transmission) and air filter changes. These are gone with a pure electric. In addition, there's a non-obvious one. The engine vibration takes a toll on the whole car. Also there's the grit that is attracted to the light coat of oil that even new internal combustion engines out-gas: it gets on and in everything.
I've personally never considered fuel cost or maintenance to be a significant cost for maintaining a combustion vehicle. So that the cost is reduced now seems to make that less of a deciding factor, when everything else is more or less equal. I know some manufacturers were including regular maintenance in the initial cost, so that becomes somewhat hidden.

John R. Graham wrote:
Even my Prius essentially didn't use brake pads. We went nearly 300k miles on the original set. I expect a pure electric with its larger motor to exhibit this characteristic even more so.
Wow, that is definitely a surprise. I expected it to be like a manual transmission. I've used the engine to slow down in those, but I found it more annoying than just using brakes to slow down when I wanted. I guess the main difference is that the hybrid and electric vehicle motors still engage for breaking. I could be wrong, but it seems that items which are less frequently replaced become more expensive.

John R. Graham wrote:
For some reason, it's called a gearbox when there's only a single speed. Lack of clutch / torque converter, shifters / bands, and multiple gear ratios means it's very simple and maintenance free. It's sealed: there's no gear oil change. Also, Tesla has recently completed a 1 million mile life test on the Model 3 propulsion unit (power electronics, motor, and gearbox). When they tore it down, it looked new inside.
Nice. I didn't realize they were single speed. Transmissions seem to rarely need work, so I'd expect even less from something with fewer moving parts that can break.

John R. Graham wrote:
Tires, alignments, shocks, brake fluid flush, wiper blades, cabin air filter are all a wash when comparing electric vs. internal combustion. Except...that vibration thing. My expectation is that all moving parts will last considerably longer in the lower vibration environment. There's some precedent for expecting this to be true. In my other hobby, a Hartzell controllable pitch propeller is rated for much lower hours TBO (Time Before Overhaul) in piston engine applications vs. turbine engine applications.
Based on current trends, I'd expect a subscription service for maintenance, if it isn't outright included in the purchase price.

The main benefit to less vibration would seem to be increased lifespan of a vehicle. I think that was somewhere around 20 years (according to Musk IIRC). If that become 30 or 40 years, then I think some rough times are ahead. There would appear to be less need for mechanics. If fewer new cars are produced due to demand, the initial cost may increase significantly. That will likely mean increased cost of used vehicles. Or maybe people will continue to buy cars they can't afford and the market for 20+ y/o cars will be small.

it'll be interesting to see when the first major mass market vehicle becomes available. Cost still seems prohibitively high.
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