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The_Great_Sephiroth
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad you got a chuckle out of it, despite it worrying so many users, myself included. I really do view systemd as a borg-like component which will transform (assimilate?) the various unique distros into what I foresee being a Redhat-like distro. I don't think it can work with Gentoo though, since Gentoo is not a binary distro.

Anyway, I have been reading on overlays and while it could fix my problem, I understand it to mean I'd have to code out libglade references or cut whichever screensavers use libglade from the package. That is a tad over my head for now. I am going to see if I can install kscreensaver without xscreensaver, or if I can manually choose which screensavers I grab without pulling the xscreensaver package.

I just do not want to pull Gnome down because then it seems to take over KDE. Like if I pull the screensavers I get GTK, and when print-manager sees GTK it will install the Gnome printer stuff, not the KDE stuff despite my desktop being KDE. That is crazy, but I believe the package maintainer tried to determine if Gnome was installed by checking for GTK. If GTK is detected do this, otherwise do that. It works, but breaks KDE in some ways.
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

print-manager is not looking for GTK, it comes with gtk USE flag enabled by default. Disabling it should drop all GTK dependencies.
Code:
 $ eix print-manager
* kde-base/print-manager
     Available versions:  (4) 4.12.5(4/4.12) (~)4.13.3(4/4.13) (~)4.14.1(4/4.14) (~)4.14.2(4/4.14)
       {aqua debug +gtk}
     Homepage:            http://www.kde.org/
     Description:         Manage print jobs and printers in KDE

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The_Great_Sephiroth
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Odd, I looked up some information and I must have misunderstood it. It showed the following.
Code:

RDEPEND="${DEPEND}
  !kde-base/printer-applet:4
  !kde-base/system-config-printer-kde:4
  !kde-misc/print-manager
  gtk? ( app-admin/system-config-printer-gnome )

What that looks like to me is "if GTK is here, use the Gnome version". Am I correct in that? Am I also correct in assuming that if I block GTK with "USE=-gtk emerge kde-blah" it will not pull GTK for any of those dependencies, or do I need to add kde-base/print-manager to package.use and block it there?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may want to revisit that little write-up on that foreign forum, I said it is somewhat outdated but it really is not that outdated, what I wrote about USE flags still stands.
Earlier in this thread I suggested emerging ufed, it will give you great overview of USE flags, are you using it now?
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The_Great_Sephiroth
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jag, I checked it out but my understanding was that it simply edited the USE line in make.conf. Am I incorrect in that? I prefer to keep ONLY the things I never want, and the things I always want in my global USE variable. For individual packages I don't mind using package.use. If I am wrong here, please let me know. I am VERY good in the shell (all of my Linux servers are shell-only, including AD domain controllers) and love nano. I also know vi, but don't use it often.

Anyway, when researching ufed, it only seemed to edit the USE variable in the make.conf file. I do not mind doing so by hand, but if there is a good reason to use it, I will.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Great_Sephiroth wrote:
Jag, I checked it out but my understanding was that it simply edited the USE line in make.conf. Am I incorrect in that? I prefer to keep ONLY the things I never want, and the things I always want in my global USE variable. For individual packages I don't mind using package.use. If I am wrong here, please let me know. I am VERY good in the shell (all of my Linux servers are shell-only, including AD domain controllers) and love nano. I also know vi, but don't use it often.

Anyway, when researching ufed, it only seemed to edit the USE variable in the make.conf file. I do not mind doing so by hand, but if there is a good reason to use it, I will.

Yeah I generally use ufed when I install, and update to set package.use flags, since it's so convenient (but then I maintain it, so it would be worrying if I didn't think that. ;) Hmm though it only supports single-file atm.

It wraps emerge, and allows me to review the list in a dialog, and set individual or global USE-flags as I like; press e/E to edit list after it's done the emerge -p preview, or run it with the -E flag to go straight to dialog. update -h and: update --help explain the options.
All the emerge flags just go through to it, apart from -v --verbose and -q --quiet which affect how verbose update is; it always runs emerge -vp initially.

update -h config shows the available config settings. Just be sure to try the git version, if you do try it, as the other ebuild is two years old. It's always kept working, as Griz64 chases me on IRC if I break anything ;)

HTH,
steveL

edit:
Quote:
Ever picture systemd as what runs "The Borg"?

Hehe. That explains why their security is so crap. ;-)
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The_Great_Sephiroth
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always pipe emerge output first, like "emerge -a xscreensaver | less". Works well enough. I'll toy with it in the virtual system but I can hand-edit and maintain my files.

I am now stuck again . Installing xscreensaver, no matter what, pulls x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.24 AND gnome-base/libglade-2.6.4-r2, which causes other things to pull Gnome versions instead of KDE versions. If I install either of the two supported KDE meta-packages, it pulls in xscreensaver and I am caught again. So my only option appears to be, install the tiny, unsupported KDE package and then manually install every individual package I want, like kuser, kmix, k3b, etc. I can do that and I do do it that way in Debian to avoid bloat, but I still won't have any screensavers.

I know I am new here, but it would be my vote to remove whatever screensaver is pulling GTK and Gnome from xscreensavers and put it in the Gnome screensavers package. That or add one screensaver from KDE, one from LXDE, and one from XFCE to the package so if you install screensavers you pull all four anyway.

*EDIT*

Alright, I gave in and installed the screensavers and allowed it to pull GTK+ and libglade. However, I now face kde-base/print-manager pulling the Gnome printer stuff and system settings. How do I prevent that? It seems crazy to me for KDE to pull Gnome stuff. Kind of like a Dodge pickup using a Toyota engine.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Great_Sephiroth wrote:
Odd, I looked up some information and I must have misunderstood it. It showed the following.
Code:

RDEPEND="${DEPEND}
  !kde-base/printer-applet:4
  !kde-base/system-config-printer-kde:4
  !kde-misc/print-manager
  gtk? ( app-admin/system-config-printer-gnome )

What that looks like to me is "if GTK is here, use the Gnome version". Am I correct in that?

No that's a USE-conditional; we don't do autodetect in Gentoo, tf, except for trivial things, and configure scripts ensuring they have what they need.
Quote:
Am I also correct in assuming that if I block GTK with "USE=-gtk emerge kde-blah" it will not pull GTK for any of those dependencies, or do I need to add kde-base/print-manager to package.use and block it there?

The latter; the former is only for -p/--pretend runs. You should never use it for actually installing anything, as portage will forget about it the next time it runs.

The one possible exception is when you are installing the machine itself, and want to keep out X before reboot. That ofc is not something you do in normal maintenance, hence "never" above.

In that case we want portage to forget about the setting afterwards.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a box which has QT and some Xorg libraries installed for running GUI apps remotely but no GTK. Out of curiosity I tried emerge -p print-manager, no Gnome parts pulled in (and no Gnome parts installed previously).
https://bpaste.net/show/87abf02ac139
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Great_Sephiroth wrote:
Alright, so it appears that x11-misc/xscreensaver depends on x11-libs/gtk+ which in turn depends on GTK. Why the heck does the core X server depend on something from a desktop that runs on top of it? That kind of forces you to have Gnome regardless of your desktop choice. I also see that alsa-tools depends on GTK and qtgui does also. How can I stop these things from being pulled? I don't want ANY Gnome on my system.

Why not use kscreensaver then?
No, alsa-tools do not depend on GTK, it is optional, there is a USE flag to turn on GTK support.
dev-qt/qtgui does not require GTK either.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe kdebase-meta pulled in xscreensaver the last time around. That is where GTK came from. I do not mind it, but I don't want the Gnome stuff. I will find out soon what pulls what. I am about to see what kdebase-meta pulls now.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Great_Sephiroth wrote:
I believe kdebase-meta pulled in xscreensaver the last time around. That is where GTK came from. I do not mind it, but I don't want the Gnome stuff. I will find out soon what pulls what. I am about to see what kdebase-meta pulls now.

If you want a lean KDE, and are having trouble getting there to your specification, you shouldn't keep banging your head against that meta, ime; just start with underlying kdelibs, kdm etc as separate packages in world. I normally start with kdebase-startkde, in that situation, though kdebase-runtime-meta is lower-level.

Once you can login (starting kdm from /etc/conf.d/xdm) and run kate, you are there, and can just add what you like when you like.

Another suggestion I've heard more recently, is to get cups installed before you even approach anything kde, since that gets you more of X11 to your specification, before you tackle startkde (which then has less deps that need pulling in, so you have less to handle/worry about in one chunk.)

Note that all of this is after xorg-server.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured it out, partly. I already have KDE and no Gnome stuff. However, the "kde-base/kdeutils-meta" package pulls the Gnome print manager. I assume this is due to pulling kde-base/print-manager. However, I have "kde-base/print-manager -gtk" in my package.use file, but it is STILL pulling Gnome. What do I have to do to get KDE to use the KDE print manager? This seems like a HUGE bug to me. I mean KDE should not depend on Gnome for anything.

Sorry if I seem agitated, I am just getting frustrated at this one stopping-point I cannot seem to get around. I mean who on earth would tie a Gnome package dependency to a KDE program?

*UPDATE*

Great, after browsing quite a few threads on various forums about this exact issue, turns out it is a bug.

https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=456360

Somebody tied the Gnome dependency into print-manager. So I cannot instill the utils meta-package and/or the print-manager package. Is there a way to break this dependency without writing a bunch of C/C++ to fix this?

*UPDATE*

Another bug report about this. Apparently SCP doesn't work by itself and the missing functionality is a part of Gnome. This is why SCP-Gnome gets pulled. The translation to me is that somebody dropped the ball and we cannot have a working print manager in KDE without Gnome currently. That is fine, I normally go to localhost on 631 anyway, so this is NOT a deal-breaker.

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=320326
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, I got everything installed except the utils package. I have decided to do without printing administration in KDE. If I use the Gnome version it pulls other Gnome things in, and that is just dumb. Sorry for being vocal, but I CHOOSE KDE, so I probably don't want Gnome installed. I will simply use the web interface for CUPS to manage printers. I only hope this doesn't prevent me from printing in KDE.

By this time tomorrow I should finally get my first taste of a functional, complete Gentoo system!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It sounds like kde-base/print-manager needs some love.

Did you login to KDE all right?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LibreOffice is STILL building. o_O

Once it finishes I am golden. I expect to be playing with Gentoo on bare metal for the first time this afternoon. I already did Flash, all of my extras (like GIMP) Firefox and Thunderbird, and now I am just waiting for the build to finish. So far my overall experience with Gentoo has been awesome, except for that dumb dependency. I spent two days trying to get print-manager without Gnome before I found those bug reports. I just went in and installed everything that the utils package installs except for print-manager. Worked great! Maybe the KDE devs or Gentoo maintainers or somebody will fix the print-manager at some point. Until then I will simply do what I have always done: Use http://localhost:631 to configure printers.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Did you login to KDE all right?

The_Great_Sephiroth wrote:
LibreOffice is STILL building. o_O

Hehe; you can login to KDE once you have kdm installed, so I just ensure I have that, kate and yakuake; put kdm into xdm.conf, and try /etc/init.d/xdm start from a root console.

You can install everything else from a (GUI) root konsole (which is a dep of yakuake ofc.)
Quote:
Gentoo has been awesome, except for that dumb dependency. I spent two days trying to get print-manager without Gnome before I found those bug reports. I just went in and installed everything that the utils package installs except for print-manager. Worked great!

Excellent :)
Quote:
Maybe the KDE devs or Gentoo maintainers or somebody will fix the print-manager at some point. Until then I will simply do what I have always done: Use http://localhost:631 to configure printers.

Yeah, that's always the backstop with CUPS, ain't it; not sure there's much point in using anything else to sort out everything it handles, since it just leaves you reliant on a whole slew of desktop libs that are liable to break.

Just query the list/properties from the front-end, and don't try to configure CUPS itself. Dunno; not enough of a print-user to call it, since most of my output is code that goes out over the wire.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Great_Sephiroth wrote:
Maybe the KDE devs or Gentoo maintainers or somebody will fix the print-manager at some point. Until then I will simply do what I have always done: Use http://localhost:631 to configure printers.

As I posted before, print-manager builds fine without GTK, but I am using ~arch. So whatever was wrong with it has been fixed.
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