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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 6:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

musv wrote:
I still put some kind of hope into the Debian guys.

The hestiated for a long time to switch to Systemd. I guess/hope, they 'll fix this piece of Lenna Ware.
they hesitate for a long time to bump python.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Someone needs to write an alternative logind implementation...

Someone first needs to document exactly why logind or consolekit is required on my phone, laptop or PC.

Somehow I doubt serious server admins are going to go for it, either; at least not the ones I'd rate.

Which just leaves "enterprise" aka Windoze refugees, who need to learn something better, not be shown something worse by design.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where would be the best place to document such imposed dependencies and proposed alternatives?
Would this be welcome at wiki.gentoo.org, or should we go to the without-systemd.org wiki?
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
Where would be the best place to document such imposed dependencies and proposed alternatives?
Would this be welcome at wiki.gentoo.org, or should we go to the without-systemd.org wiki?
Depends on the end result. A purely objective list then sure place it on w.g.o. A political slant? take out out of gentoo domainspace
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin,

Everything except a few broken by design packages still works without systemd and/or *-kit.
Its not needed now so there is no need for any new alternatives.

These alternatives already exist or are like systemd - not required.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2015 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
Where would be the best place to document such imposed dependencies and proposed alternatives?

The alternative to hitting your head against the wall, is to stop. ;)

The use-cases outlined as pretext for consolekit^W logind are best addressed by professional sysadmins at organisations which actually need them, along with everything else (so much more..) they need to administer to provide roaming or thin-client clusters. (loginkit has nothing to do with it.)

For everyone else, including all the desktop users and below this stuff is supposedly aimed at, you're better off not worrying about a setup you have no interest in running, from which you would derive no benefit.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Thank you Naib, NeddySeagoon and steveL.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another mea culpa; I need to apologise to uudruid for the following (from a while back.)
uudruid wrote:
Calm down..
..I think you need to lay off the drugs. They are making you paranoid..
You are putting your emotions in here and being quite insulting - to people who are supporting you no less.

steveL wrote:
Note there was no insult.
..
As for what you sounded like, that's not directed at you personally, but at your statements.

This was disingenuous, and to my shame an example of trolling, given that I'd said:
Quote:
You keep going on about directory services, and it's just wrong. You sound like as much of a Windows wannabe as Poeterring from what I've read so far.

As I've come to realise, I've been ignoring social cues for the last 18 months to 2 years, but this is just testing the limits of someone's "ego detachment" via what can only be taken personally, if one is not autistic nor a sociopath.
Thus the point about the difference between an attack on a statement, and an attack on the person, is simply weasel words, thus trolling.

My bad.

There was an interesting point uudruid raised, about: "random applications broadcasting data to all other applications on a bus (assuming wide acceptance, all processes on your system) would be a bad design," which we'd need to think about for any future work, that got lost in the nonsense.

Again, my apologies. Rereading the above posts a week or two ago, is what motivated the backtrack and the "mea culpa" linked above. That and falling out with khayyam a while back, which I found puzzling at the time, but has been troubling me since.

@khayyam: I can't find the thread/s, so please accept my apology here for being obtuse and thus rude.

steveL
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seteveL wrote:
I need to apologise to uudruid for the following (from a while back.)


@steveL: Don't worry about it. Not a big deal. I don't take anything too personally and haven't even thought about it. Not even following the thread anymore.

I've sort of made a compromise as far as systemd (thats what this was all about wasn't it?). I still say its wrong and evil, and it does address a few things that should be addressed, I just hate how it goes about it. But some things aren't worth fighting. I needed a simple and easy "just works" distro that would let me install binaries for 90% of things, and "emerge" the rest. Sabayon looked to fill those needs, and it happens to be a distro that has embraced systemd. So be it. It's just running on my laptop as a desktop.

For my server, I'm running Funtoo. No systemd, will never happen. Not even an option. Running tengine (offshoot of Ngnix), djbdns, metalog ... very specific things I want set up, not a boilerplate LAMP, and the server is fast with no GUI, so I don't have to worry about it taking a fortnight to compile/update big GUI packages like Gnome (my reason for using Sabayon/binaries).

So ... I've compromised a bit. Although if someone has a better Gentoo-based binary distro that is desktop-oriented, latest-gnome, and no systemd please message me privately since it would be off-topic here. I would consider switching perhaps, but I'm trying to be less hands-on with fiddling with my OS. I just want it to work![/quote]
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just thought i'd butt in and make some people go Geez, it ain't over yet?!

RazielFMX's signature summarizes my position:
Quote:
I am not anti-systemd; I am pro-choice. If being the latter makes you feel that I am the former, then so be it.

I had been using Debian for 10 years until choice ceased. Devuan's still getting on its feet, maybe i'll give it a try - APT is awesome. For now, i'm getting used to emerge and them USE flags (-zeroconf -avahi -pulseaudio -selinux -gnome -kde -systemd -gtk -qt4 -qt5 -consolekit) and liking it. A lot of rough edges but that's the fun of it. Slackware's also on the list of to-try. In fact, they both had been for ages but i master procrastination. Guess i could almost thank Lennart for that. After fiddling with Xen also some BSD and Illumos will follow.

In sum: thank you Gentoo for continuing to provide choice.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

'su' is next on the Borg list:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

Whatever you think of systemd, those guys need to have a think about syntax. This is reminding me of powershell; a syntactic nightmare.
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tld
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sulman wrote:
'su' is next on the Borg list:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

Whatever you think of systemd, those guys need to have a think about syntax. This is reminding me of powershell; a syntactic nightmare.

ffs...never mind syntax..."sudo systemd-run"??? Why??...just why. What non-existent disease is that jackass trying to cure now? There just are no words.

I agree too...all their crap reminds me of that bad dream that is powershell. These are all people with a Windows mindset for sure.

Tom
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep reading Lennart's description, and after referring to the manpage for 'su' I'm a little lost; I don't fully understand what problem this is solving. Anyone enlighten me?
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depontius
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sulman wrote:
I keep reading Lennart's description, and after referring to the manpage for 'su' I'm a little lost; I don't fully understand what problem this is solving. Anyone enlighten me?


Addictive behavior?
Can't stop usurping Unix functions, making them Windows-like?
Feels a great inner need to keep doing it?
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tld
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
Can't stop usurping Unix functions, making them Windows-like?

There almost seems to be a desire to put unnecessary, bug ridden, security hole prone layers of bullshit in between the user and all the real unix functionality "just because we can".

I'm starting to think that Lennart does shit like this and then works very hard, though unsuccessfully, at cooking up some explanation for it's existence.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
I'm starting to think that Lennart does shit like this and then works very hard, though unsuccessfully, at cooking up some explanation for it's existence.

What about this explain?
Maybe it's a bad explain, because reinventing the wheel into doing a wheel couldn't be a good explain ; but if you are doing special screws with the wheel, the story change.

Build an alternate to su, so any tools that will ask privilege raised, must not use su, but systemd whatever_shit_they_name_it : now all desktops not using systemd couldn't provide the feature to such program, making them hard to not use systemd, even they don't use it themselves.

You have plenty desktops choice, but for apps, choice is mostly limited to gtk base or qt base ; will you still run wireshark on mate if wireshark couldn't run because it need something systemd provide but not su? Even if your DE doesn't use systemd, distros using non gnome DE will be force to use systemd, because people cannot really live with only the default tools provided with the DE. Look at skype example.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sulman wrote:
'su' is next on the Borg list:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

poettering wrote:
the problem is that what "su" is supposed to do is very unclear. On one hand it's supposed to open a new session and change a number of execution context parameters (`uid`, `gid`, `env`, ...), and on the other it's supposed to inherit a lot concepts from the originating session (`tty`, `cgroup`, `audit`, ...). Since this is so weakly defined it's a really weird mix&match of old and new paramters.

IOW: "I don't really understand su."
poettering wrote:
To keep this somewhat managable we decided to only switch the absolute minimum over

Eh, what? Why do you need to "manage" anything at all? It's already running fine, and you don't understand it, so here's an idea:
Leave it alone.

I note in passing the elision from "I don't really get this" to "my version is simpler" (and simple is good, right? all those Unix "haters" keep saying so, so let's shove some marketing bulshytt in, to make ignorance sound like wisdom.)
poettering wrote:
and that excludes `XDG_RUNTIME_DIR`, specifically because `XDG_RUNTIME_DIR` is actually bound to the `session/audit` runtime and those we do not transition. Instead we simply unset it.

So finally we come to what this is all really about. And what a radical solution you have come up with; no-one's ever been able to unset an environment variable before. If only we could do this in our profile or shell rc file:
Code:
su(){
   XDG_RUNTIME_DIR= /bin/su "$@"
}

poettering wrote:
Long story short: `su` is really a broken concept.

Funny, it's been working fine for the last 30 years.

Admins seem to be able to get their heads round it, and visudo well enough.
Some idiot "developer" doesn't; so what? He doesn't grok shell either.

No-one asked him to change it, afaict. If they had, they'd likely have got someone who actually understands it, and doesn't just throw out everything, then reinvent it all badly a year or two later, acting as if he's come up with something "innovative" and not a dire reimplementation of cleaner code, written and in-production before he was born.
poettering wrote:
It will given you kind of a shell, and it's fine to use it for that, but it's not a full login, and shouldn't be mistaken for one.

RTFM. If you mean "under systemdbust, it's not enough" that's simply because you've completely messed-up the design of the base-system, due to your inability to cope with your own ego.

No-one should mistake Poettering for anything other than a bulshytt-merchant, and certainly not for a programmer.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
No-one asked him to change it, afaict. If they had, they'd likely have got someone who actually understands it, and doesn't just throw out everything, then reinvent it all badly a year or two later, acting as if he's come up with something "innovative" and not a dire reimplementation of cleaner code, written and in-production before he was born.
poettering wrote:
It will given you kind of a shell, and it's fine to use it for that, but it's not a full login, and shouldn't be mistaken for one.

RTFM. If you mean "under systemdbust, it's not enough" that's simply because you've completely messed-up the design of the base-system, due to your inability to cope with your own ego.
You're not kidding. If inheriting the entire root ENV with "su -" isn't a "full login", I can only imagine the horror of his idea of a "full login"...most likely a ton of unintelligible, ill-conceived, binary monkey shit written all over the place. Yea, let's replace su with some dangerous privilege escalation because "doesn't work with our mis-designed bullshit" = "not good enough".

These folks need to just go the fuck away.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

>.> If it comes down to a choice between windows, and windows lite(systemD). I would rather choose windows.
At least win10 doesn't decide to shit itself one out of every 4 boots for no reason. Among other common complaints like taking upwards of 10 mins to start a service that a user wants to start even if they issued the command. The still randomly corrupting logs..
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:

Maybe it's a bad explain, because reinventing the wheel into doing a wheel couldn't be a good explain ; but if you are doing special screws with the wheel, the story change..


Krinn, I know English is not your first language, so I ask you to consider the various meanings of the word "screw" in colloquial American English:

1. a mechanical fastener
2. sexual coitus
3. to ignorantly tinker with (i.e. "screw around" or "screw with")
4. to maliciously harm someone (i.e. He really screwed me)
5. to deliberately ruin something (i.e. screwed it up)

IMHO your quote applies to all of these meanings except #2. "special screws with the wheel" Oh, yes!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945,

In English English, gives the context, it can only be 1. :) but then again ...

MARKETING GIRL: wrote:
Well alright mister wise guy, if you’re so clever you tell us what colour it should be!

Younger readers may need to google that.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just saw an interesting portion of a comment on Slashdot. The topic was the Kernel-4.2 announcement, and the particular post was an anti-systemd rant. (Not that I'm against such things, I'm just rather tired of all of the rants from both sides, at the moment.) Anyway, "Is it tested for security? No. Has it FIPS and Common Criteria testing? RedHat 6.x have, 7.x have not." I'm not sure how properly rigorous (I know at least FIPS is rigorous, I'm just not sure if it's rigorously testing the right things.) either FIPS or Common Criteria are, but it will be interesting to see a systemd distro subjected to rigorous security testing.

http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=7928777&cid=50422693
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Guys,

so i've been following the systemd disscussion on this forum for a rather long time now, but never wrote anything, because i had'nt really anything useful to say. But today i stumbled upon something that is so crap, that i want to bring it up here, for everyone to laugh about.

So, today is was doing my system updates and noticed that it had installed a dbus update. Now, when i notice that a system service has been updated i usually go ahead and do a "systemctl restart <system-service>". I typed "systemctl restart dbus".

As soon as i pressed Enter, my system was having a seizure. The graphical session just outright crashed and i was staring at a black screen. After about a minute my display manager came back, as if nothing happened. But it went away again after a few seconds, without me doing anything.
I tried pressing Ctrl+Alt+Fn (where n is 1,2,3,...) but it didn't work. The only thing i could do at this point was to press the reset button.

Some of you might think that this is to be expected, because systemd relies on dbus as a transport, but i mean come on. I would have expected that systemd has some sort of mechanism in place to cope with the dbus daemon being restarted.
After my computer restarted i decided to look more into this and just killed the dbus daemon. My computer crashed again, as expected.
I thought "In all this years none of the systemd developers tested restarting the freaking dbus daemon?! How shitty is that?". Turned out i was wrong, because a quick google search revealed this (take it from Poettering itself): http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2013-January/008456.html
My takeaway from this E-Mail is: "Well, we know that the D-Bus protocol is utter crap, so we just shove this into the kernel, because when the kernel crashes, you're fscked anyway. But hey, i've never seen dbus crash, so it's not a problem at all".

I'm not really sure what he means with "sane getty". I can assure you, i've seen no "sane getty" on my system when it crashed.

This obviously has also nasty security implications. If somebody manages to crash the system dbus daemon, the whole system will fall over. Great.

I have to say this is pathetic. I'm really disappointed right now.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice find, __bjoern. Thanks for sharing.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dear god... comparing & asserting similarity to a kernel panic and a userland crash creating the same end-result is mind boggling...

More justification for PID1 to be beyond simple: launch PID2, extremely simple to sweep up zombie processes... AND such a PID2 being sane enough to handle something like a communications bus failing (ie detect, protect, attempt restart of the bus, fallback for logging)
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