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augustin
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:27 pm    Post subject: Ease up to Gentoo with Calculate Linux? Reply with quote

Hello,

I have very recently decided to switch to Gentoo, as my main distro.
I am a long time Linux user but a Gentoo virgin. I am somewhat experienced in Linux administration, but certainly not a Guru.
I am a heavy KDE user. I started with Mandrake and I have now been using Kubuntu for many years.

I am going to build a brand new box, an AM3+ MB with a 8 core CPU.... (and 640k RAM... because it "ought to be enough for anybody." [1] ).

The computer will be at home, where I currently have no other computers. As soon as that box is set up, I'll start working from home. So this is for production, work-related use, some video editing, blender 3D on the side, but also recreational.

Even though my stated goal is to use Gentoo, I am considering starting with Calculate Linux, for the convenience of installing a system 100% compatible with Gentoo from binaries. I am thinking that this will speed up the initial installation process, and will give me more time to get familiar with Gentoo.

I am not averse to compiling (I am a newbie C++ developer). I love RingTFM and I truly appreciate the quality and the details of the installation manual found in the Gentoo wiki. (Well done to all wiki editors!) But first I am intimidated by the amount of information to gob up at one time, and the huge number of choices to make right from the start. Also, I am afraid to be stuck at home, with possibly no internet connection should the live disk fail to connect, and turning my thumbs while waiting for something to compile or, worse, pulling my hair if I get stuck, do things wrong with no way to get to the online Manual.

So, that's why I am considering starting with Calculate Linux rather than diving straight away into raw, source-based Gentoo. Once the system is quickly installed from the binaries, I'll have a working system at home and I'll be able to take things one step at a time, slowly working my way up to Gentoo-mastery.

Am I missing something?

And to be honest, I am also curious on how they managed to derive a binary distro from a source-only distro. I have very vague, very long term plans to maybe create my own distro one day, aiming to bring a systemd-free distro to the masses in my country. Because let's face it: if I personally am eager to go one step higher on the ladder of Linux mastery, I know absolutely nobody in my entourage who would even remotely consider installing and maintaining something so geeky. For some reasons, Calculate Linux is not the distro for me for the long term, but I'd like to learn from both it and Gentoo.

What do you think?


[1] http://blog.codinghorror.com/24-gigabytes-of-memory-ought-to-be-enough-for-anybody/
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject: Re: Ease up to Gentoo with Calculate Linux? Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
What do you think?

augustin ... firstly, calculate isn't gentoo, and though derived from gentoo there is a big difference, the first of which is the community.

Most of your fears are probably unjustified, yes, gentoo will take longer to install but it will provide something important, and that is the necessary understanding of how to manage your install subsequent to that install. So, at the same time you build your install, you're building the skill set required to use, and manage it. As the saying goes, its better to be at the bottom of a ladder you want to climb, than half way up one you don't.

That said, while there is a lot to learn, you don't need to know everything at the get go, and while daunting you probably won't have too many issues, the Handbook is fairly detailed, and the community here are supportive. Also, when new users first start out they tend to think in terms that more experienced users don't, so part of the climb is a combination of getting use to the new terminology, and not sweating the small stuff (fixing, or tweaking, things after the install is done is trivial). So, don't be put off by either ... its better to get stuck in and work through issues as they arise, rather than preempt such issues at the outset.

As for specific advice, you should probably use sysrescuecd, its gentoo based, has better networking support (for wireless, etc) and comes with x11, firefox, etc ... so you can follow the manual, get advice, etc, during the install. Secondly, do things in stages, get your basic install done (with dhcpcd, wpa_supplicant, and whatever else is needed for basic functionality), build a kernel (this is generally the most time consuming task ... if your unfamiliar with the process ... but there are various short-cuts you might take), then work on x11, the DE, and whatever apps you require. Breaking it down into stages makes it easier to fix issues because most of whats needed it there. I tend to do some changes in the stage3 before I start out, but in your case just look toward getting something that boots and provides you some kind of working environment.

Also, emerge 'wgetpaste', it'll be useful for providing logs, or output, should you need help here. Besides that, make the most of the community, any issue you run into mostly like someone else has prior, use the search function here, search the wiki, or ask.

HTH, welcome & best ... khay
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, khayyam.

You are right about the community. I appreciate that a lot. And having already spent a many hours browsing through the forums here, I am impressed by the high level of technical expertise, much higher than what I have experienced on other Linux forums.

Having said that, I noticed that Calculate Linux has a strong French-speaking community. Being French myself, it's not to displease me ;)
Also, Calculate claims to be 100% compatible with Gentoo. It uses an Overlay and other common Gentoo techniques to get to its distro. I believe that once installed, I could simply slowly peel off the extra layers to arrive at a 'pure' Gentoo installation that perfectly suits my need.

Still, I have another 1~2 months before I get the new hardware. So I'll have some more time to read the documentation more in details, make notes. Obviously, I'll take into account your advice, checking in the docs the couple of points you refer to and that I don't quite understand yet. I like reading wikis and documentations, especially good quality ones like here, so no worries on this end!

Thanks a lot.
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gerard27
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I quite agree with khayyam.
Look at my sig,use rescuecd to install Gentoo.
Gerard.
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To install Gentoo I use sysrescuecd.Based on Gentoo,has firefox to browse Gentoo docs and mc to browse (and edit) files.
The same disk can be used for 32 and 64 bit installs.
You can follow the Handbook verbatim.
http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
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augustin
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi gerard,

Yes, I will do my best to go that way. I have some more time to learn. We'll see.
I'll burn the rescue CD soon and I'll try it out on my current computer. Nice sig! ;) Thanks.

a.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
Thank you, khayyam.

augustin ... you're welcome.

augustin wrote:
Also, Calculate claims to be 100% compatible with Gentoo. It uses an Overlay and other common Gentoo techniques to get to its distro. I believe that once installed, I could simply slowly peel off the extra layers to arrive at a 'pure' Gentoo installation that perfectly suits my need.

But its not "compatible with" the gentoo community, we don't support calculate. Also, getting from calculate to gentoo may not be as simple as 'peeling off the extra layers', their package versions, patch sets, etc, may cause issues that gentoo users don't see, so any issue you have will be difficult for us to detect because of subtle differences. That's in part why we don't support derivative distributions, we can't be sure that the issue you encounter isn't due to something specific to calculate.

augustin wrote:
Still, I have another 1~2 months before I get the new hardware. So I'll have some more time to read the documentation more in details, make notes. Obviously, I'll take into account your advice, checking in the docs the couple of points you refer to and that I don't quite understand yet. I like reading wikis and documentations, especially good quality ones like here, so no worries on this end!

OK, as I said, you don't need to know everything at the get go. Often you find new users encountering useflags and they think 'oh, what useflags do I need' and so spend an awful lot of time looking for useflags and adding them all to make.conf ... this is mostly a waste of time and can be considered harmful, most useflags that need enabled are set via the profile selected, and those which are not, and you might want set globally, are few in number (I for instance only have 12 set in make.conf). Similarly with CFLAGS, many new users spend an inordinate amount of time researching what exactly they need to set to get the most from their CPU, and in some cases selecting flags which cause issues (or need to be managed carefully), using CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -pipe" is all that's really needed. Keep that in mind when reading, these features are for tweaking things to your liking, they are not steps you need to perform in order to get from point A to point B.

Another piece of advice, stick with stable ... ~arch (unstable) is really for users who have the skill set to deal with the issues that arise.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin,

Welcome to Gentoo.

Mostly, you will miss the education that is your first gentoo install.
That education provides the skills and confidence to maintain your install once its full of your data.

You can try Gentoo in VirtualBox if you want to practice the install before your hardware arrives.
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those that do backups
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szatox
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am a long time Linux user but a Gentoo virgin. I am somewhat experienced in Linux administration, but certainly not a Guru.

Good, so you will have to make friends with disk-related stuff (bootloader, device mapper, lvm etc) and with emerge. The rest of basics you should already know. Good start.
Considering the only thing stage3 is missing from being a usable system is lack of kernel, you can think of it as the "base gentoo". As soon as you realise installation means in fact extracting the archive, arming it with kernel and making bootable you're ready to use installation manual as a vague guide rather than an oracle :)

Quote:
I am going to build a brand new box, an AM3+ MB with a 8 core CPU.... (and 640k RAM... because it "ought to be enough for anybody." [1] ).

Actually this is where B.G. was absolutely right. Unfortunately he was also the one who bloated the world afterwards.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree with everyone who says stick with the Gentoo install. Peeling off extra layers may be done by an expert, but it will take longer and be more complected than a base install and you really need to know what you are doing. I did this with Sabayon a long while ago for an intellectual exercise. You really don't want to start there.

Other than that, I'd say use the system rescue CD, plan on using 48 hours for the install, and bring a laptop. The laptop is so you can use the net comfortably if something goes wrong, 48 hours is so you don't over stress yourself if it isn't going to plan.

I'd also advise you to think about what extras you might want. Gentoo won't provide anything by default. For example, disk monitoring with Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology System (S.M.A.R.T.) monitoring tools (sys-apps/smartmontools) might be on your list, as might a network time synchronization (net-misc/openntpd) You will need to RTFM to use these, obviously. Fortunately, it isn't hard to find.


I would also offer you some advice about KDE. Gentoo provides two packages. kde-meta and kdebase-meta. the first installs everything, including the kitchen sink. You probably won't use half of it. kdebase-meta will install the basic environment and then you can add anything else you might want, such as games, etc. This has the advantage of avoiding extra compiling for stuff you will never use, but it is completely your call.

That is my 2 cents anyway. Have fun, and welcome to Gentoo!

EDIT: Clarity.
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First things first, but not necessarily in that order.

Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.


Last edited by The Doctor on Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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psva00
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without getting too much into it, I'd also say go to Gentoo, not calculate, for many of the good reasons listed, not the least of which is that learning to install Gentoo is half of what makes it a Gentoo system. You built it, and you know how it works when you need to fix it. Think of it less in terms of setting up a computer, and instead accept that you are taking a class on linux. :)

Honestly, the guide is big and scary, but after you're done, you will realize that you only take action on 5-10% of what is there. Much of it is background and maybe even more of it is alternate options/methods etc. Read through it once or twice before you install, and it's not so overwhelming. As mentioned above, all you're really doing is preparing disks, dumping the stage 3 onto it, building the kernel, and installing the loader. Throw on a few utilities like syslog and cron and you're in a linux system that you just made WITH YOUR BARE METAL...sort of.

Anyways, welcome to Gentoo, good luck, and remember that there's tons of people here and on the mailing lists ready to help.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome!

I strongly suggest to avoid Calculate if your goal is Gentoo
If you want Gentoo then starting with Gentoo is the best way and there is no easy start because it leads to misunderstanding.

If your goal is anything based on Gentoo then I will suggest Sabayon instead of Calculate.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

OK, as I said, you don't need to know everything at the get go. Often you find new users encountering useflags and they think 'oh, what useflags do I need' and so spend an awful lot of time looking for useflags and adding them all to make.conf ... this is mostly a waste of time and can be considered harmful, most useflags that need enabled are set via the profile selected, and those which are not, and you might want set globally, are few in number (I for instance only have 12 set in make.conf). Similarly with CFLAGS, many new users spend an inordinate amount of time researching what exactly they need to set to get the most from their CPU, and in some cases selecting flags which cause issues (or need to be managed carefully), using CFLAGS="-O2 -march=native -pipe" is all that's really needed. Keep that in mind when reading, these features are for tweaking things to your liking, they are not steps you need to perform in order to get from point A to point B.

Another piece of advice, stick with stable ... ~arch (unstable) is really for users who have the skill set to deal with the issues that arise.

best ... khay


Thanks Khay. I just started drafting a personal document to make notes. As I said, I am fairly experienced with linux, but my experience is lacking in many areas. So I take note of all of your specific advices (from all of you) about things that are new to me, that I might forget, or that I want to research more.

Thanks a lot.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
augustin,

Welcome to Gentoo.

Mostly, you will miss the education that is your first gentoo install.
That education provides the skills and confidence to maintain your install once its full of your data.

You can try Gentoo in VirtualBox if you want to practice the install before your hardware arrives.


Hi Neddy,

Thanks for the welcome.
I value a lot self-education, so I take the point you and others made very gladly. Thanks for the advice.

I'll check out what VirtualBox is.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
Quote:
I am a long time Linux user but a Gentoo virgin. I am somewhat experienced in Linux administration, but certainly not a Guru.

Good, so you will have to make friends with disk-related stuff (bootloader, device mapper, lvm etc) and with emerge. The rest of basics you should already know. Good start.
Considering the only thing stage3 is missing from being a usable system is lack of kernel, you can think of it as the "base gentoo". As soon as you realise installation means in fact extracting the archive, arming it with kernel and making bootable you're ready to use installation manual as a vague guide rather than an oracle :)

Quote:
I am going to build a brand new box, an AM3+ MB with a 8 core CPU.... (and 640k RAM... because it "ought to be enough for anybody." [1] ).

Actually this is where B.G. was absolutely right. Unfortunately he was also the one who bloated the world afterwards.


Haha! :D I take in that most of you here use a lightweight DM!
As a KDE user, I need all the bloated memory I can get. But I'll give lightweight DMs a try, later on. I'll see if I can get more productive and better concentrated when I work. But I like integrated environments and I'm likely to stick with KDE (but I'm worried they're headed in the wrong direction, with regard to systemd [e.g. wayland, logind]...)

szatox, your first paragraph is spot on. I am not worried about emerging individual packages later on, or general administration once the system is running. But, beside the gentoo-specific stuff, there is a whole class of details that I hadn't needed to learn about so far, and that includes all of those you listed. And I need to learn about those before I even consider start installing anything.

A few examples.

I never needed to know about init systems. I learned about systemd only 4 months ago (I was checking LFS out, and they had a separate handbook for systemd and I had no clue what it was about). Since then, I have learned a fair amount, and didn't like what I learned. And earlier this month, I was dismayed at how little alternative choices I had for a distro that didn't force systemd on me. I had known about Gentoo for a long time, and I'm glad I have this opportunity to use it at last.

Up until two days ago, I took for granted that I would use ext4. I had never heard of zfs or btrfs. Now I want to spend more time learning about btrfs. I want a stable, future-proof system that I won't have to re-install for many years to come.

I never had to compile a kernel before. But I guess, as long as I get a bootable system, I don't need to get all the optimization flags right on the first time.

I am building my first RAID system. I already spent a lot of time learning about RAID, the various RAID levels, the differences between h/w raid, fake h/w raid, software raid, etc. For the time being, although it may still change, I plan on having a RAID 1 of 240GB ssd drives with software raid (mdadm). I cannot afford much more for the time being, but I want a sound base system that I can upgrade over time as funds allow.

It also means that I need to spend a lot of time worrying about the best hardware choice, starting with the motherboard and the chipset (I already have a good idea of what I want, now).

In short, so many things to learn at once. That's why I was asking if I could cut at least one corner by going binary for a first install. But you all make good points against it.



Thanks a lot.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually run Gentoo and Ubuntu systems in parallel, though I install the Gentoo system first.
The Ubuntu system serves as an easy-install low-maintenance approach to support Gentoo if
it goes out to lunch (it never has) or if I reinstall. With no apps Ubuntu fits in an 8GB partition,
and seems a cheap insurance policy.

You could well do it the other way around; install Ubuntu, preferably with a separate /boot
partition, and then install Gentoo from there. You could also, of course, install from a DVD
or USB stick, but a permanent second installation is quite handy, if you have the space.

Will
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
That is my 2 cents anyway. Have fun, and welcome to Gentoo!


Hello Doctor,

Thanks for the welcome and the invitation to have fun, too.

The Doctor wrote:

Other than that, I'd say use the system rescue CD, plan on using 48 hours for the install, and bring a laptop. The laptop is so you can use the net comfortably if something goes wrong, 48 hours is so you don't over stress yourself if it isn't going to plan.


By "system rescue CD", you mean this one http://www.sysresccd.org/ ?
If so, you are the 3rd person in this thread to recommend it to me. The installation wiki only mentions the 'Minimal installation CD', which is the one I would have used if it were not for your advice. What's the difference between the two?

I don't own any laptop, never have. As I said in the opening post, this will be an installation made on a new computer at home, and it will be the only computer that will be there. If things go very wrong, I'll have to go to my work place and check online there.

It's the 48 hours bit that prompted me to wonder about starting with a binary install. I hope I'll be able to use the rescue CD to browse the web and do some productive work while the system is compiling...

The Doctor wrote:


I'd also advise you to think about what extras you might want. Gentoo won't provide anything by default. For example, disk monitoring with Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology System (S.M.A.R.T.) monitoring tools (sys-apps/smartmontools) might be on your list, as might a network time synchronization (net-misc/openntpd) You will need to RTFM to use these, obviously. Fortunately, it isn't hard to find.

I would also offer you some advice about KDE. Gentoo provides two packages. kde-meta and kdebase-meta. the first installs everything, including the kitchen sink. You probably won't use half of it. kdebase-meta will install the basic environment and then you can add anything else you might want, such as games, etc. This has the advantage of avoiding extra compiling for stuff you will never use, but it is completely your call.

Thanks, I have added those to my notes. I'll start with kdebase-meta and the monitoring tools you recommend.
Before KDE, I may install a lightweight DE first, I don't know which one yet.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psva00 wrote:
Without getting too much into it, I'd also say go to Gentoo, not calculate, for many of the good reasons listed, not the least of which is that learning to install Gentoo is half of what makes it a Gentoo system. You built it, and you know how it works when you need to fix it. Think of it less in terms of setting up a computer, and instead accept that you are taking a class on linux. :)

Honestly, the guide is big and scary, but after you're done, you will realize that you only take action on 5-10% of what is there. Much of it is background and maybe even more of it is alternate options/methods etc. Read through it once or twice before you install, and it's not so overwhelming. As mentioned above, all you're really doing is preparing disks, dumping the stage 3 onto it, building the kernel, and installing the loader. Throw on a few utilities like syslog and cron and you're in a linux system that you just made WITH YOUR BARE METAL...sort of.

Anyways, welcome to Gentoo, good luck, and remember that there's tons of people here and on the mailing lists ready to help.


Hi psva, Yes, thanks to all the useful comments, I am starting to see for myself the meaning what you are writing.

But still, I had to laugh when you wrote about syslog and cron. I have always taken them for granted. It's like what The good Doctor said above: nothing is included implicitly!
But I see they are mentioned in the installation wiki, so I won't forget. I'll install the default syslog first, and worry later about which better alternatives might exist.

thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
Welcome!
I strongly suggest to avoid Calculate if your goal is Gentoo
If you want Gentoo then starting with Gentoo is the best way and there is no easy start because it leads to misunderstanding.

If your goal is anything based on Gentoo then I will suggest Sabayon instead of Calculate.


Hello Cynede. Thanks for the welcome.

I am not quite considering Calculate anymore. You all make good points. I have read a bit more since I asked and I feel less panicky ;)

But I'm curious: are you (you personally and the Gentoo community in general) specifically against Calculate? Any reason for it?
I ask because you go on to suggest using Sabayon instead.

In my opening statement, I specifically mentioned that I wanted a distro that allowed me to be systemd-free, which didn't leave me much choice. I did my research before landing on this forum. Calculate does not depend on systemd by default. The Calculate maintainer seems in agreement with the anti-systemd sentiment, so that's why I was considering it.

Sabayon on the other hand, has gone the systemd route by default. References:
"Rolling out systemd" - 2013-04-15
http://www.sabayon.org/article/rolling-out-systemd
"systemd became our default init system":
https://forum.sabayon.org/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=30743

And unlike Calculate, Sabayon does not claim any kind of compatibility with Gentoo (unless I missed it).

I am new here, obviously, and I don't know yet the local politics and the 'history' that the gentoo community might have had with other people and distros.
I almost didn't start this thread at all. I was a bit concerned that by asking about Calculate in a Gentoo forum, I might be taken for a troll or that I might step into a mine field, the existence of which I had no way of knowing beforehand.

At this stage, I am simply curious, that's all. No need to reply if you feel it won't be constructive.

In any case, I am glad I did ask, because I received a warm welcome and plenty of useful, constructive advice. Thanks to you and to all.

But thanks for the welcome and the advice.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
But still, I had to laugh when you wrote about syslog and cron. I have always taken them for granted. It's like what The good Doctor said above: nothing is included implicitly!

augustin ... yes, but some things are, sys-fs/udev for instance, and this, as you probably know, is a component of systemd (having been merged). However, such things can be gotten rid of, in my case there is no udev (or eudev), dbus, xdg ... all the things that most distributions install as prerequisite (and make impossible to remove). That's the kind of flexibility on offer ... via the skills learned.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cwr wrote:
I usually run Gentoo and Ubuntu systems in parallel, though I install the Gentoo system first.
The Ubuntu system serves as an easy-install low-maintenance approach to support Gentoo if
it goes out to lunch (it never has) or if I reinstall. With no apps Ubuntu fits in an 8GB partition,
and seems a cheap insurance policy.

You could well do it the other way around; install Ubuntu, preferably with a separate /boot
partition, and then install Gentoo from there. You could also, of course, install from a DVD
or USB stick, but a permanent second installation is quite handy, if you have the space.


Hi Will,

I like your suggestion a lot. It seems I'd get everything I had in mind this way: peace of mind, a stable, known environment (for me that would be Kubuntu) that I can install quickly and use as a bootstrap to install gentoo at home.

From my experience, live CDs are very slow to use, and not a nice environment to work from, to do some productive work during the installation process.

On the other hand, I'd still have to figure out how to install Kubuntu on a partition at the end of the RAID-1 that I plan to use for gentoo... I could later reclaim that partition by expanding the ... Unless I have another disk handy to use, temporarily. I'll think about it.

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
augustin wrote:
But still, I had to laugh when you wrote about syslog and cron. I have always taken them for granted. It's like what The good Doctor said above: nothing is included implicitly!

augustin ... yes, but some things are, sys-fs/udev for instance, and this, as you probably know, is a component of systemd (having been merged). However, such things can be gotten rid of, in my case there is no udev (or eudev), dbus, xdg ... all the things that most distributions install as prerequisite (and make impossible to remove). That's the kind of flexibility on offer ... via the skills learned.



Hi Khay.

I just learned a few days ago about eudev, as an altenative to udev. Other than that, I am not yet fully cognisant of the whole systemd dependency tree. It's not like I were afraid to catch a virus. My only hard requirement is not to have systemd as PID=1, and have the possibility to remove systemd altogether, even if I do it a bit later on, when I'm fully settled. My long term concern is the direction KDE might be headed... :-/

a.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
but some things are, sys-fs/udev for instance,

Thanks for letting me know. I made a note about it.

a.
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Cynede
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:

But I'm curious: are you (you personally and the Gentoo community in general) specifically against Calculate? Any reason for it?
I ask because you go on to suggest using Sabayon instead.


Gentoo community is friendly and neutral but also very different per person.
I like systemd. So far I had no problems with it, it's fast and clean, so it's also personal opinion.
I also like ATL and COM objects :lol:
I suggest Sabayon because I know the leader, Fabio who is friendly active Gentoo developer and he is doing awesome things... Sabayon has aslo many Real goals and projects developed there.
I know nothing about Calculate. Who develop it, if they does something good for gentoo (maybe) and why sombody will like it. So I have absolutely no interest in Calculate.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
But I'm curious: are you (you personally and the Gentoo community in general) specifically against Calculate? Any reason for it? I ask because you go on to suggest using Sabayon instead.

augustin ... I don't think its a question of the community being against either, so much as their being derived from gentoo and this leading to a situation where users expect that we should support them in that endeavour. You see, code is cheap ... community is not.

Cynede wrote:
Gentoo community is friendly and neutral but also very different per person. I like systemd. So far I had no problems with it, it's fast and clean, so it's also personal opinion.

With logic like that any discussion of what systemd means for users, its stated goal of a "standard base system", is likely to be impossible, or conveniently avoided.

Cynede wrote:
I suggest Sabayon because I know the leader, Fabio who is friendly active Gentoo developer and he is doing awesome things... Sabayon has aslo many Real goals and projects developed there.

So, preferable to gentoo? You do realise that the user who you recommending sabayon to is trying to get away from systemd?

best ... khay
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Cynede
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

Cynede wrote:
I suggest Sabayon because I know the leader, Fabio who is friendly active Gentoo developer and he is doing awesome things... Sabayon has aslo many Real goals and projects developed there.

So, preferable to gentoo? You do realise that the user who you recommending sabayon to is trying to get away from systemd?


Sure not, if you will read thread history you will see that I just explain why I suggest to pick Sabayon over Calculate if he will not pick Gentoo for some reason.

khayyam wrote:

With logic like that any discussion of what systemd means for users, its stated goal of a "standard base system", is likely to be impossible, or conveniently avoided.


I don't get it. Do you mean that things that I said is harmful for holywars? In case of that I will always pick the freedom of choice. That's important.
But If I like coffee just because it's tasty for me I can tell it without caring about health problems caused by coffee...
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