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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
So, preferable to gentoo? You do realise that the user who you recommending sabayon to is trying to get away from systemd?

Sure not, if you will read thread history you will see that I just explain why I suggest to pick Sabayon over Calculate if he will not pick Gentoo for some reason.

Cynede ... ok, but sabayon will land them with systemd, so the very thing they are trying to avoid.

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
With logic like that any discussion of what systemd means for users, its stated goal of a "standard base system", is likely to be impossible, or conveniently avoided.

I don't get it. Do you mean that things that I said is harmful for holywars? In case of that I will always pick the freedom of choice. That's important.

When I read "harmful for holywars" I know instantly that such is a technique to polarise any such discussion ... the problem you have however is that this "freedom of choice" you proclaim to be in operation is in diametrical opposition to the stated aims of systemd: the "standardisation of the base system". So, basically, choice means nothing under such an arrangement, and the "gentle push" to make that so is nothing more than the removal of *my* choice. So, you can't have it both ways, if your freedom to choose effects mine negatively then this whole idea of choice evaporates.

best ... khay
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

augustin wrote:
But I'm curious: are you (you personally and the Gentoo community in general) specifically against Calculate? Any reason for it? I ask because you go on to suggest using Sabayon instead.

augustin ... I don't think its a question of the community being against either, so much as their being derived from gentoo and this leading to a situation where users expect that we should support them in that endeavour. You see, code is cheap ... community is not.

Yes.
To be clear:
1) My comment was mostly addressed at Cynede who "*strongly* suggested to avoid Calculate". The emphasis seemed to indicate there was a specific reason for it. Apparently not.
I probably won't be using Calculate, now. Or if I do, it will be like cwr suggested: install it on one partition to give me a working platform at home, while I install Gentoo *from scratch* on another partition, giving me the best of both worlds. Once Gentoo fully installed, I'll probably reclaim the space taken by the first installation.

2) If I were to install Calculate at all, I wouldn't consider coming _here_ to ask for help. I would have gone to their forums for that. There would have been no misunderstanding.

Khay, I understand what you are saying, and I agree with your point. No problem there.

I am personally very happy for this opportunity to learn about Gentoo. Still, Calculate seems to be an interesting project and it caught my attention. I'll keep an eye on it, see how it evolves. Gentoo can only ever be a niche distro, for system administrators and assorted geeks like you and me. However, a binary distro based on, and compatible with, Gentoo seem to me like a good plan to reach a wider public, the type that now uses [k]ubuntu, etc. Everybody could benefit from it, including Gentoo, if bugs and improvements are properly pushed upstream, from a large(r) user base to Calculate, from Calculate to Gentoo and from all to upstream source projects. I'd love to see something like this happen.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

You see, code is cheap ... community is not.


Haha! :) As a struggling would-be C++ developer, I'd hardly say that code is cheap! ;)

However, like you, I highly value community (and teamwork). I haven't started using Gentoo yet, but I've already found some small ways to contribute something back, as a way of saying thank you for all the feedback I'm receiving here.

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7708932.html#7708932
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Augustin
It's not much.
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psva00
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:

But still, I had to laugh when you wrote about syslog and cron. I have always taken them for granted. It's like what The good Doctor said above: nothing is included implicitly!
But I see they are mentioned in the installation wiki, so I won't forget. I'll install the default syslog first, and worry later about which better alternatives might exist.


Keep in mind that while freedom of choice and openness are important, that also means you don't have to change everything. :) If it works, and it's filling all of the needs you have for it (a syslog...logs the system...) then there's little reason to change it. But you have the right attitude, get the system built, and then push and pull until it does what you want. If you want to trim the footprint down, find a lighter alternative, change build flags, change USE flags, etc...and it's all documented. If you want to change something about how your system works, you're probably not the first and it's probably well documented in the wikis and forums, but if you are the first, then CONGRATULATIONS! Make a forum post, you just became a community contributor!
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
khayyam wrote:
You see, code is cheap ... community is not.

Haha! :) As a struggling would-be C++ developer, I'd hardly say that code is cheap! ;)

augustin ... what I mean is ... the entire repository of code that functions as gentoo can be grabbed, renamed, etc, that part is easy, having a community to support it is not.

augustin wrote:
However, like you, I highly value community (and teamwork). I haven't started using Gentoo yet, but I've already found some small ways to contribute something back, as a way of saying thank you for all the feedback I'm receiving here.

Yes, the norm of reciprocity in action.

best ... khay
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Cynede
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

When I read "harmful for holywars" I know instantly that such is a technique to polarise any such discussion ... the problem you have however is that this "freedom of choice" you proclaim to be in operation is in diametrical opposition to the stated aims of systemd: the "standardisation of the base system". So, basically, choice means nothing under such an arrangement, and the "gentle push" to make that so is nothing more than the removal of *my* choice. So, you can't have it both ways, if your freedom to choose effects mine negatively then this whole idea of choice evaporates.


It's not a technique, I have no problems, There is nothing about *your* choice.
If you want to have discussion about why do I like systemd we should move it somewhere else, for example you can use private messages here.
It's not related to what I want to share here.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

psva00 wrote:
Keep in mind that while freedom of choice and openness are important, that also means you don't have to change everything. :) If it works, and it's filling all of the needs you have for it (a syslog...logs the system...) then there's little reason to change it. But you have the right attitude, get the system built, and then push and pull until it does what you want. If you want to trim the footprint down, find a lighter alternative, change build flags, change USE flags, etc...and it's all documented. If you want to change something about how your system works, you're probably not the first and it's probably well documented in the wikis and forums, but if you are the first, then CONGRATULATIONS! Make a forum post, you just became a community contributor!


Yes.
The reason I mentioned looking for an alternative syslog is that the default one I'm currently running on my server has a quirk that annoys me, but so far, I never took the time to properly investigate the matter nor any potential alternatives. But as you say... one thing at a time.
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

augustin ... what I mean is ... the entire repository of code that functions as gentoo can be grabbed, renamed, etc, that part is easy, having a community to support it is not.

Oh, I see. Yes, you're right, of course.
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szatox
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin, let me point out a few things:

Quote:
I never needed to know about init systems. I learned about systemd only 4 months ago (I was checking LFS out, and they had a separate handbook for systemd and I had no clue what it was about). Since then, I have learned a fair amount, and didn't like what I learned. And earlier this month, I was dismayed at how little alternative choices I had for a distro that didn't force systemd on me. I had known about Gentoo for a long time, and I'm glad I have this opportunity to use it at last.
You can consider openrc a "sane default" in gentoo. You don't have to learn it in advance. Things that should be started by init tend to provide you scripts. You are unlikely to hit a roadblock here just after getting started

Quote:
Up until two days ago, I took for granted that I would use ext4. I had never heard of zfs or btrfs. Now I want to spend more time learning about btrfs. I want a stable, future-proof system that I won't have to re-install for many years to come.
Take that ext4, you can always migrate later if you wish. And you can expect reinstall within a few weeks, when you see the mess you have done :lol: (I wonder if you manage to beat the "chmod 777 /" of mine )

Quote:
I never had to compile a kernel before. But I guess, as long as I get a bootable system, I don't need to get all the optimization flags right on the first time.
That's right! There are basicaly 2 ways here: "make && make install" or "genkernel all". Again, you can launch genkernel with default config and see what it gives you. Some devices will likely not work, but at this point you just want to boot it. Oh, you can also borrow kernel from any other distro, and this includes whatver liveCD you pick as your instalation media. Or your already installed linux, as you seem to have one, nobody said it MUST be a liveCD. I tend to feed my VMs this way. Too lazy to tune stuff I'm throwing away in a few hours.

Quote:
I am building my first RAID system
Start with a basic instalation on a single drive. Again, you can migrate later, if you wish to do so.
You need stage3, kernel and bootloader to get started. Stage3 is the "default binary gentoo". And it seems with EFI you can even skip bootloader if you build your kernel well enough. Well, let's say it won't be the case on your first attempt, install that bootloader. Again, with 2 drives you can migrate later. Prefferably at the same time you move from a single drive to raid, as they are closely related so you can stone 2 shots with 1 bird™


Last edited by szatox on Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I might be a bit slow on the uptake, but I just realised: I might be running gentoo much sooner than I expected. I have a 10G spare partition on my computer at work, that I can play with. A few years ago-I was still smart, back then-I had set 10GB aside for precisely this kind of scenario: test another distro.

I just quickly searched the internet, and apparently it is theoretically perfectly possible to install Gentoo from my running Kubuntu machine. No need for any live CD nor rescueCD, then.
The partition is ready, my work computer is connected to the internet. I could simply mount the partition and sudo chroot to it, wget the 3rd stage tarball thingy and pick up from here:
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Stage#Unpacking_the_stage_tarball

It's 4am, now, so I probably ought to go home. But I could get started as soon as tomorrow! It won't be the exact same hardware set-up than my next box, but I had planned to install gentoo here, too. And if I mess up, I rm -fr /mnt/gentoo/ and start again. In any case, I would pick up the necessary experience that I'll need for my future box.

:s/
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szatox
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I could simply mount the partition and sudo chroot to it, wget the 3rd stage tarball thingy and pick up from here:

Almost. You will not be able to use wget from within an empty folder, but you're good to go as soon as you got the order sorted
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augustin
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

szatox wrote:
...but you're good to go as soon as you got the order sorted


LOL! Yes.

And thanks for your previous comment as well. We cross-posted.
A.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin,

10G will be really tight for a desktop system. I usually give a headless virtual machine 20G.
Even without X, I still run out of space and need to clear out old kernels and distfiles.

Virtualbox is the way to go to play.
If you already have linux with KVM support, that works too.

Virtualbox is point and click. Setting up a Kernel Virtual Machine is much more to learn.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:
The Doctor wrote:

Other than that, I'd say use the system rescue CD, plan on using 48 hours for the install, and bring a laptop. The laptop is so you can use the net comfortably if something goes wrong, 48 hours is so you don't over stress yourself if it isn't going to plan.


By "system rescue CD", you mean this one http://www.sysresccd.org/ ?
If so, you are the 3rd person in this thread to recommend it to me. The installation wiki only mentions the 'Minimal installation CD', which is the one I would have used if it were not for your advice. What's the difference between the two?

I don't own any laptop, never have. As I said in the opening post, this will be an installation made on a new computer at home, and it will be the only computer that will be there. If things go very wrong, I'll have to go to my work place and check online there.

It's the 48 hours bit that prompted me to wonder about starting with a binary install. I hope I'll be able to use the rescue CD to browse the web and do some productive work while the system is compiling...


Yes, that is the CD I was talking about. The only difference you will find is that it has a working X with web browser and a few tools. It won't change anything at all. In fact, it is basically a Gentoo build someone turned into a live CD.

You will have a web browser if you use the system rescue CD, but catch 22 is that you generally need the web when your boot fails at which time the CD is not running. You can get by without the other computer, it just means you may have more leg work.

I say leaving 48 hours to do the install is wise because you never know what can come up. I will probably only take 4-8 for a first install, but you don't want to count on that. Nothing is worse than adding stress trying to finish the project.


augustin wrote:
Before KDE, I may install a lightweight DE first, I don't know which one yet.


Try fluxbox, or simply use twm and install x11-terms/xterm for a virtual terminal. You should install these last two to test X anyway, so there is no reason you can't use them while KDE builds. They are as ugly as anything, but they work. You probably want to add a web browser to these, otherwise you won't have much to do.
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Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
When I read "harmful for holywars" I know instantly that such is a technique to polarise any such discussion ... the problem you have however is that this "freedom of choice" you proclaim to be in operation is in diametrical opposition to the stated aims of systemd: the "standardisation of the base system". So, basically, choice means nothing under such an arrangement, and the "gentle push" to make that so is nothing more than the removal of *my* choice. So, you can't have it both ways, if your freedom to choose effects mine negatively then this whole idea of choice evaporates.

It's not a technique, I have no problems, There is nothing about *your* choice.

Cynede ... if its not a technique then what does 'harmful for holywars' mean? As to my choice, your acting as though our respective choices are equal when they are not. Your choice has effects that those not making that choice will have as an outcome. If I argued that my choice to pollute the water upstream from you was equal to your choice to drink it or not, you might agree that the idea of our respective choices were essencially incompatible.

Cynede wrote:
If you want to have discussion about why do I like systemd we should move it somewhere else, for example you can use private messages here. It's not related to what I want to share here.

What you wanted to share wasn't related to what the OP asked, they are moving toward gentoo to get away from the imposition of systemd, so suggesting sabayon was pointless. As for systemd, I don't care what you like about it, I simply resent that its increasingly forced on everyone whether they like it or not, and I don't like the campaign that goes along with it, and that developers, like you, frame the whole issue as about choice and conveniently overlook that such choices are becoming increasingly limited. You and I are not part of the same community, that agreement was broken long ago when systemd entered the tree and gentoo decided to follow the path that upstream was dictating.

best ... khay
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Cynede
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

As to my choice, your acting as though our respective choices are equal when they are not. Your choice has effects that those not making that choice will have as an outcome. If I argued that my choice to pollute the water upstream from you was equal to your choice to drink it or not, you might agree that the idea of our respective choices were essencially incompatible.


What's wrong with you and my choice? How do people who use systemd affect you?

khayyam wrote:

What you wanted to share wasn't related to what the OP asked, they are moving toward gentoo to get away from the imposition of systemd, so suggesting sabayon was pointless.


Yes If main point is getting away from it then I suggested a wrong thing. However do you know if there are problems with switching init system there?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
As to my choice, your acting as though our respective choices are equal when they are not. Your choice has effects that those not making that choice will have as an outcome. If I argued that my choice to pollute the water upstream from you was equal to your choice to drink it or not, you might agree that the idea of our respective choices were essentially incompatible.

What's wrong with you and my choice? How do people who use systemd affect you?

Cynede ... as I said, systemd's "policy":

Lennart Poettering wrote:
With systemd we have a very strict policy: we want to gently push the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system.

... those using systemd effects me because systemd has, and pushes, this "very strict policy". I can no longer compile and use usbutils because of changes made by a systemd developer, this "push" is effecting the entire ecosystem, making the choice not to use systemd obsolete. Whats more, I don't think there is any technical merit to it, specifically the idea that a "standard base system" is a cure for some ill.

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
What you wanted to share wasn't related to what the OP asked, they are moving toward gentoo to get away from the imposition of systemd, so suggesting sabayon was pointless.

If main point is getting away from it then I suggested a bit wrong thing. However do you know if there are problems with switching init system there?

Well, I know it uses 'eselect-init' (or whatever its called) as that was something Fabio wanted to have pushed into gentoo ... but whatever the case each install comes with systemd, and all that entails.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
As to my choice, your acting as though our respective choices are equal when they are not. Your choice has effects that those not making that choice will have as an outcome. If I argued that my choice to pollute the water upstream from you was equal to your choice to drink it or not, you might agree that the idea of our respective choices were essentially incompatible.

What's wrong with you and my choice? How do people who use systemd affect you?

Cynede ... as I said, systemd's "policy":


Yes, there are negative and positive sides I see around systemd but as I said previously please let to not convert this thread into yet another holywar.
I'm not forcing anyone to use systemd and I don't have relations with systemd development process, at least for now and I have nothing to do with "policy".
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
Cynede ... as I said, systemd's "policy":

Yes, there are negative and positive sides I see around systemd but as I said previously please let to not convert this thread into yet another holywar.

Cynede ... see, what did I say. If you state "I like systemd ... it's fast and clean", etc, etc, recommending sabayon ... even though the OP is moving to gentoo to avoid systemd ... that is neutral, if I say anything to counter your statements that is "holywar". You can now avoid the point I'd made, after all someone who engages in "holywar" can't possibly be rational ... and so the whole question of policy, choice, etc, can be dropped.

Cynede wrote:
I'm not forcing anyone to use systemd and I don't have relations with systemd development process, at least for now and I have nothing to do with "policy".

Right, and by advocating systemd you play absolutely no role in its adoption, and in making that policy a reality .... you're completely a neutral party.

best ... khay
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:

you're completely a neutral party.


Okay, just hate me, we've got this logical end of the discussion.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
khayyam wrote:
you're completely a neutral party.

Okay, just hate me, we've got this logical end of the discussion.

Cynede ... you're confusing criticism with anamosity, no suprises in that regard, that's how systemd advocacy is played.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede and khayyam,

I am sorry that my thread became an opportunity for more disputes and hurt feelings. To a large extent, I am responsible for that.

Cynede, the advice against Calculate and for Sabayon was indeed the wrong advice in the context of this thread. That's the criticism part. The criticism was meant to be constructive. It certainly wasn't meant to be hurtful. I am sorry for that.

I am looking forward to have more constructive and positive discussion with you, in the months and years to come. Your profile says you are a developer: I want to thank you for the contributions you've made to the Open Source ecosystem.

You know, I am very active in the campaign to highlight the plight of the 200+ poor Nigerian schoolgirls who were kidnapped a year ago just because they assumed that girls had a right to go to school. They were then raped, abused and forcibly married off to some violent and murderous fanatics. They have not been seen since. Their government has done pretty little to get them back. And our western governments couldn't be bothered beyond using this tragedy as an opportunity to have their photographs taken with a "#BringBackOurGirls" sign.

Compared to that, all our petty problems and contrarieties amount to zilch. We are indeed very lucky to be able to have the freedom to express ourselves in this forum, to plan computer hardware purchase and software installation. We have so much that we take for granted. Let's all remember that and make peace!

I know my own shortcomings, and I am sorry for my share of responsibility in the current dispute, and for all the times I was solely responsible for instigating flamewars and hurting people's feelings.

~
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile, back on topic, I have started installing Gentoo on a separate partition of my current system. I have just compiled my first kernel.

I still have much to learn and to check before I am confident enough to try to boot into my new gentoo installation. I'm taking my sweet time to check all the available documentation.

Thanks all.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

augustin wrote:

the advice against Calculate and for Sabayon was indeed the wrong advice in the context of this thread. That's the criticism part. The criticism was meant to be constructive. It certainly wasn't meant to be hurtful. I am sorry for that.


I have no idea why, "openrc is still actively supported and working" there. If you're scared to defaults it's not my fault.
I don't suggest things based on desktop wallpaper or alike...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cynede wrote:
I strongly suggest to avoid Calculate if your goal is Gentoo
If you want Gentoo then starting with Gentoo is the best way and there is no easy start because it leads to misunderstanding.

If your goal is anything based on Gentoo then I will suggest Sabayon instead of Calculate.

I wouldn't; we've had many more problems with supporting Sabayon, than Calculate, from what I've seen.

Whether that's because Sabayon encourages users to ask on here (or used to) and Calculate does not, I could not say; all I know is that sabayon uses an entirely different package manager, as well as other more significant differences which have cropped up on the forums.

Gentoo on bare metal would be my recommendation; though I wouldn't personally have an issue helping someone on Calculate, where I would not even attempt it with Sabayon.

In both instances I'd recommend the user ask for help on the downstream-specific forum, mailing-list or IRC channel, rather than here.
augustin wrote:
Meanwhile, back on topic, I have started installing Gentoo on a separate partition of my current system. I have just compiled my first kernel.

I still have much to learn and to check before I am confident enough to try to boot into my new gentoo installation. I'm taking my sweet time to check all the available documentation.

Good one :-) Welcome to Gentoo: you're going to love it. ;-)
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