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tclover
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:49 pm    Post subject: [split] chaff from kdbus in the kernel Reply with quote

Split from kdbus in the kernel. --pjp

Err... so some moves are going underway in the kDbus _merge window_(PUN INTENDED.) Interesting to say the least. And that TAB is in the hands of Intel(R); second interesting point. Call me whatever may please Intel fanboys et al., but I don't have any particular liking for _monstrously_ big American corporations, especially those that have foundries in Israel. Wait, I am absolutely not linking anything to Jews. Absolutely nothing, I repeat. However, such an American big Corporation on Israel soil is more than over loaded with actual facts(!) and meanings(!). So, again, nothing linked to Jews--I couldn't care less _if_ there were any.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclover wrote:
Err... so some moves are going underway in the kDbus _merge window_(PUN INTENDED.) Interesting to say the least. And that TAB is in the hands of Intel(R); second interesting point. Call me whatever may please Intel fanboys et al., but I don't have any particular liking for _monstrously_ big American corporations, especially those that have foundries in Israel. Wait, I am absolutely not linking anything to Jews. Absolutely nothing, I repeat. However, such an American big Corporation on Israel soil is more than over loaded with actual facts(!) and meanings(!). So, again, nothing linked to Jews--I couldn't care less _if_ there were any.


As someone that opposes kdbus/systemd/etc for technological reasons, I'd prefer to not go down a road where we are blaming boogeymen in lieu of the actual problems. Security holes to be exploited? Absolutely, but it doesn't matter if it's those evil Americans or those evil Jews or those evil whatever... it's the fact that it can be exploited and is probably intentionally designed to be subtly exploitable that is a problem (in addition to the technological inferiority, design issues, etc).

I'd rather not have the debate be that we are all antisemites for opposing poettering and friends because someone on the internets once gave them the ammo to say so (just like him attacking people for hating disabled people because they don't support systemd's agenda).
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
I'd rather not have the debate be that we are all antisemites for opposing poettering and friends because someone on the internets once gave them the ammo to say so (just like him attacking people for hating disabled people because they don't support systemd's agenda).


Err... so you're making a particular _stress_ on a point INTENDED to threw something NOT INTENDED away to... bringing that _same_ thing in? I have absolutely nothing to add then.

And please leave that so called _evil_ motive which does not have any practical basis but to concentrate some (un)necessary hatred to some. How convenient. It's all about money. And this is where the power (of money) is INTENTIONALLY highlighted above--on my comment. Nothing more, nothing less.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclover wrote:
saellaven wrote:
I'd rather not have the debate be that we are all antisemites for opposing poettering and friends because someone on the internets once gave them the ammo to say so (just like him attacking people for hating disabled people because they don't support systemd's agenda).


Err... so you're making a particular _stress_ on a point INTENDED to threw something NOT INTENDED away to... bringing that _same_ thing in? I have absolutely nothing to add then.

And please leave that so called _evil_ motive which does not have any practical basis but to concentrate some (un)necessary hatred to some. How convenient. It's all about money. And this is where the power (of money) is INTENTIONALLY highlighted above--on my comment. Nothing more, nothing less.


Your line of argument is easy for people to dismiss as "just another antisemite" or "just another conspiracy theory nut", allowing poettering and friends to debate that rather than the actual technical and security problems of their software, which are the real problems. Look around on the Gentoo forums, phoronix, slashdot, etc and every time the systemd issue comes up, you'll see a statement about how "the anti-systemd people never bring up any technical problems because there aren't any since systemd is teh awesome, they're luddites that don't want to learn a new set of commands and conspiracy theory nuts." I'd much rather stick to the technical arguments which can be factually backed up and that they can't argue against, rather than play right into their argument that we can immediately be dismissed because we're crazy.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Your line of argument is easy for people to dismiss as "just another antisemite" or "just another conspiracy theory nut", allowing poettering and friends to debate that rather than the actual technical and security problems of their software, which are the real problems.

++
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Your line of argument is easy for people to dismiss as "just another antisemite" or "just another conspiracy theory nut"

Please provide ANY facts,--because this _seems_ to be what you're using as points for arguments,--pointing to any "anti-Semitic" and "conspiracy" theories or sayings instead of talking and reasoning in mere void accusations.

I added not less than three repetitions to clarify a single point. You know what? ... just because of using "Israel",--the country and not the people,--in my previous post to prevent... the "anti-Semitic" accusation. And you went as far as... adding "conspiracy" on top of it. Well, big deal for such an easy troll. lol

When I am just interested on the chess moves or power moves if you like. Of course technical points matter when trying to... e.g. bring kDbus into the kernel, or when sysd tried to attract distros etc. But, as you may have noticed, it does _only_ matter for that purpose and then serve as a means to move to... another thing. WTF! Well, when a big corporation is involved for market share et al., the chess moves does matter and not only the technical merits of, say, any of its product or offering. Enter the joyfulness of PR and strategic move (or interest.)

EDIT: You may read the link Neddy provided above for... such easy and not so easy moves.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@tclover: strategic polticking does indeed matter, but you don't need to bring in crap like that to address it.
In fact you're simply making the situation worse.

IMO, you seem to have some issue with Jews, since you segued from Jewish people straight to "MONEY" in the next post, without even trying to provide any reasoning. As if it were so obvious, it doesn't need to be explained (when in fact the opposite is true: it should be questioned.)

And no offence, but it's completely off-topic, as well as dubious.

Sure we are facing lots of corporate interests; just like we always have.
We don't need to discuss the geopolitical situation, nor the fraud that is at the heart of all our problems, to counter. Be that arguments, dependency crippling, or simply by continuing to use good software.

Yes, I agree that: "If you don't know what it's about, it's about money."

That doesn't mean we don't all still have our own issues.

Every human-being does.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I added not less than three repetitions to clarify a single point. You know what? ... just because of using "Israel",--the country and not the people,--in my previous post to prevent... the "anti-Semitic" accusation. And you went as far as... adding "conspiracy" on top of it. Well, big deal for such an easy troll. lol

steveL wrote:
@tclover: strategic polticking does indeed matter, but you don't need to bring in crap like that to address it.
In fact you're simply making the situation worse.

IMO, you seem to have some issue with Jews, since you segued from Jewish people straight to "MONEY" in the next post, without even trying to provide any reasoning. As if it were so obvious, it doesn't need to be explained (when in fact the opposite is true: it should be questioned.)


Where is the "Jewish" mention in my comment when I'm only talking about foundries in Israel--country--owned by Intel--big corporation--as a STRATEGIC move?! WTF! It was not enough to have a troll but two on the same thing. Fine, by me. LULZ

Quote:
And no offence, but it's completely off-topic, as well as dubious.


No offense eithery but... you seem to have a problem with "Jews" because you're reading the word "Jews" instead of "Israel"--the country. Of course, I am talking of MONEYW--owned by Intel,--again a big corporation,--to state clearly what I am talking about. AND NEVER EVER linked MONEY to "Jews"--this is your doing along with saellaven.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
IMO, you seem to have some issue with Jews, since you segued from Jewish people straight to "MONEY" in the next post, without even trying to provide any reasoning. As if it were so obvious, it doesn't need to be explained (when in fact the opposite is true: it should be questioned.)

tclover wrote:
I added not less than three repetitions to clarify a single point. You know what? ... just because of using "Israel",--the country and not the people,--in my previous post to prevent... the "anti-Semitic" accusation. And you went as far as... adding "conspiracy" on top of it. Well, big deal for such an easy troll. lol

You hadn't written this when I responded.
Quote:
Where is the "Jewish" mention in my comment when I'm only talking about foundries in Israel--country--owned by Intel--big corporation--as a STRATEGIC move?! WTF! It was not enough to have a troll but two on the same thing. Fine, by me. LULZ

WTF does that have to do with anything? You haven't linked it at all.

And like I said, you did in fact mention Jews in the first post; sure you did that to say that talking about Israel is not talking about the Jewish diaspora, and I agree that it is not. Most Jews across the world wanted nothing to do with Zionism, and many still do not; just as most Christians want nothing to do with "Republican" Fundamentalists, who are nothing like Christian, and most Muslims want nothing to do with so-called "Islamic" Fundamentalism. As an aside, it's interesting to note that all of them seem to want an Apocalypse, so they can say some tramp on mushrooms (or mouldy bread) was right (with some being under the delusion that they're going to part of "the 144,000" ascending to heaven, as if God didn't see any of the shit they pulled in their lives.)

It was the way you went from that straight to shouting about "MONEY". Perhaps it's just how you communicate; I know some people use CAPS for emphasis.

Nonetheless it had to be questioned.
Quote:
No offense eithery but... you seem to have a problem with "Jews" because you're reading the word "Jews" instead of "Israel"--the country. Of course, I am talking of MONEYW--owned by Intel,--again a big corporation,--to state clearly what I am talking about. AND NEVER EVER linked MONEY to "Jews"--this is your doing along with saellaven.

Uh-huh; like I said, if it comes across as dodgy, it's going to be picked-up on. If you don't like that, don't communicate on a shared forum.

Still not seeing what the ROTW being corrupt has to do with anything. We know it's corrupt, so does everyone else. That's why we get together to make a shared space which is not about the bulshytt, and not about what look you conform to, since we cannot even see each other.

So tell me: what was the relevance of Intel in Israel, just like all the other US companies? That's why the EMEA region has its misnomer.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
So tell me: what was the relevance of Intel in Israel, just like all the other US companies? That's why the EMEA region has its misnomer.


Err... nothing less?

Well, lets take another example then for the sake of a short highlight. What could possibly mean a strategic move in South Africa under apartheid by a corporation?
I am sure that pro-corporate would say "nothing, of course, it's just business as usual." Is it really _just_ a question of (making) money? Many other places may be more profitable. A more reasonable view, even without knowing the details, may say, "there's something" because many PR like the free(dom) to consume,--to make money, that is. Homework: e.g. search for BDS in any popular search engine.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclover: I still don't see what that's got to do with kdbus in the kernel. Perhaps you could draw the strands together.

But I should have made it clear in my previous response, that I accept what you are saying about not being an anti-semite.

Sorry about that.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
So tell me: what was the relevance of Intel in Israel, just like all the other US companies? That's why the EMEA region has its misnomer.


Well, when Intel in Israel was mentioned, my first thought was Mossad. Of course I have no clue about any level of involvement, I can only speculate and play an armchair geopolitical/intelligence analyst. "Intel in Israel" is ringing so many bells on so many levels, however. :mrgreen:

I'm sure tinfoil-hat wearers will be fast to "connect the dots" starting with RH, RH's allegedly biggest contractor - the military, etc...

It also may have nothing to do with Intel(ligence) Op(eration)s and everything to do with the apparent recent surge of cybersecurity operations and startups in Israel, or to be precise - the common cause if it all, whatever that is. I'm not linking any article because I don't know which one to give credit for, google is your best friend.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
But I should have made it clear in my previous response, that I accept what you are saying about not being an anti-semite.

Sorry about that.


No problem. Sorry to have returned the favor discretely as well. I _was_ pretty sure to have _only_ used "Israel--the country" and "Israel--the people" but indeed I used _only_ "Jews" to reiterate my goal to no avail.

Quote:
tclover: I still don't see what that's got to do with kdbus in the kernel. Perhaps you could draw the strands together.


There certainly were too much unnecessary noises when I was just trying to highlight simple (strategic) facts. RH is now openly in proactive mode (GNOME, SystemD etc.) backed by some (US) governmental funds (or contracts) meanwhile some politicking moves are going underway in the kernel side. And who are going to ultimately make arbitrages? Enter the TAB. And who/what has an upper hand there? My comment was intended to highlight this simple observation on who works for what.

This is not surprising since the Linux kernel and Linux OSs are now on the limelight. Nobody couldn't expect less with the recent and not so recent events regarding power/interests like the recent and not so recent NSA/CIA/FBI doings behind the doors. (Anybody heard of that success story of the FBI regarding Jeremy Hammond?) And these are particularly apparent with conflicts on interest between American corporations/State. Well, there are the equivalent conflicts in the other NATO or US satellites/allies... But wait, some noticeable pro-actors like the Google, RH, M$, Intel et al. representing big interests are receiving SOMETHING letters when need be, or else, some juicy contracts.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclover wrote:
steveL wrote:
It's almost like it's a point of pride not to concede things could be done better, or something; really I think it's just part of being attached to your work, which is what you have to let go of.
It takes a long time to do that, ime, though some people have that attitude from the beginning.

It's natural for anyone who cares about what they're doing. The flipside is they also usually care about doing things right.

IME you just have to be straightforward, and occasionally blunt to get through.


Couldn't be truer for... OpenRC team/upstream. These guys threw the same *mantra* of FORM-BEFORE-CONTENT several times on me before closing bug/issue without taking a look at the patch.

Oh boys, are they just a bunch of Kings--that want anybody before them to kiss their feet before engaging in any meaningful discussion--or something?!

Just opened another bug then and wait their... reaction--just do not hold your breath. LULZ

Okay, so what we have here is someone who:
  • goes out of their way to make a bug report as difficult as possible for upstream to deal with
  • files duplicate reports and throws a fit when one is closed as such
  • deliberately ignores the fact that they're on github, with all its free infrastructure, and demands the developers fetch patches from an offsite pastebin that mangles newlines and apply them by hand
  • throws a tantrum at those incredibly patient developers yelling that they're being assholes and idiots when this shitty patch fails to apply because it was not even tested before sending

I'm amazed you have the time to do all that, in between your busy schedule of spamming your ripoff of other people's sv-script work everywhere you can.

Please, STFU.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I am curious if you're paid for this...

Ant P. wrote:
Please, STFU.

Well, if you have something to say about "duplicate" bug and "shitty patch" you might read... at least the title of the said bug before... posting your refined sport comment. And then... maybe try to read the comments if you could.

ST... Who's talking?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclover wrote:
ST... Who's talking?


Reading through that GitHub issue, I'm applauding the devs for keeping their cool in the face of such blatant trolling.

Instead of helping the devs benefit from your valued contribution with the least possible effort and wasting least amount of their unpaid time, you throw a hissy fit. Really, let's talk about "your way or the highway" that you mention -- because after all they're just sitting there idly waiting for your patch to fall from the sky, and nothing else, right? And all that Git(hub) shenanigans about cloning and pulling that's just dumb and irrelevant, because there's no way someone designed Git to facilitate patching and contributing and not waste time on boilerplate and churn. No that's just the whim of the devs.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tclover wrote:
First, I am curious if you're paid for this...

Ant P. wrote:
Please, STFU.

Well, if you have something to say about "duplicate" bug and "shitty patch" you might read... at least the title of the said bug before... posting your refined sport comment. And then... maybe try to read the comments if you could.

ST... Who's talking?

I'd be more inclined to read your posts if half of them weren't reaching miroR-levels of gibberish.

Oh and let's talk about a related topic: In the course of inflating your own ego by stepping on everyone else's toes, you've illegally misappropriated and relicensed my code without even so much as asking beforehand.

I'll give you until the end of the week to acknowledge the reply here. I know you've already received an email notification from the automatic watch that wiki adds for edited pages, so don't feign ignorance. If no action is taken I'll follow this up by filing an issue on your repo at the weekend, and if you haven't cleaned your entire git history out by the start of next month I'll be sending Github a DMCA complaint.

Your move.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant, I am not getting at you in any way here, but to someone (like me) who knows almost nothing about Github I have to say that:
Quote:
filing an issue on your repo

made me chuckle.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, can we rein it in a bit? I don't think tclover has done anything malicious, and ime he's willing to learn from his mistakes.

So let's give him a chance to do exactly that (and correct the copyright issue.)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
tclover wrote:
First, I am curious if you're paid for this...

Ant P. wrote:
Please, STFU.

Well, if you have something to say about "duplicate" bug and "shitty patch" you might read... at least the title of the said bug before... posting your refined sport comment. And then... maybe try to read the comments if you could.

ST... Who's barking?

I'd be more inclined to read your posts if half of them weren't reaching miroR-levels of gibberish.

Oh and let's talk about a related topic: In the course of inflating your own ego by stepping on everyone else's toes, you've illegally misappropriated and relicensed my code without even so much as asking beforehand.

I'll give you until the end of the week to acknowledge the reply here. I know you've already received an email notification from the automatic watch that wiki adds for edited pages, so don't feign ignorance. If no action is taken I'll follow this up by filing an issue on your repo at the weekend, and if you haven't cleaned your entire git history out by the start of next month I'll be sending Github a DMCA complaint.

Your move.


For somebody who knows only barking, I am surprised for that polite prose. I did not re-license anything--that's your way of putting a licensing conflict against me. I've added the same header as *any* file in the repository and highlighted the license terms with questions marks and asked you if I could use the file first, and which terms you wanted for months. Big deal, removing the file was also an option from the start. I won't bother going to your private page on the wiki to see if you edited it out or not--I couldn't care less. And now you want me to clean up the whole repo? Fine, go fill your DMCA complain to github and then I would go check your personal page on the wiki to retrieve the material showing your nonsense--as if you've never used any code posted on public forums/wiki et al. Now... start barking, please.

NOTE: Even the README.md of the project stated clearly the authorship of the file. (Reapeted-)Questions marks on that kind of things are pretty obvious for anybody who knows how to read. Yet... you go as far as saying I did not ask? How funny... waiting your complaint then.

EDIT:
header wrote:

# $Header: /etc/sv/initctl/run Exp $
# $License: 2-clause/new/simplified BSD ??? Exp $
# $Description: SysVinit (shutdown/reboot) compat. svc Exp $

README.md wrote:
Ant P. (initctl SysVinit shutdown/reboot compatibility service...);

wiki/AntP-page wrote:
* One last thing... I've included your initctl perl script and added your name on the contributor list with question marks on BSD-2 license. Do you mind my use of it? The license terms? Or remove it entirely? [[User:Tclover|Tclover]] ([[User talk:Tclover|talk]]) 21:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
+
** Denied. Remove that code from your repository immediately. [[User:Ant P.|Ant P.]] ([[User talk:Ant P.|talk]]) 22:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


EDIT[2]: The file was attached to a thread on gentoo forums WITHOUT ANY COPYRIGHT NOR A DISCLAIMER RESTRICTING ANY USAGE OR MODIFICATIONS. Re-licensing?! Go &$*! yourself with your nonsense, or rather, look for a good lawyer.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, you two really make me want to punch the pair of you, upside your head.

Is this what you call collaboration? Seriously, take some time out, both of you, and consider whether this is what you want your kids looking back on in 20 years.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Is this what you call collaboration?

I am not collaborating anything with that angry John. I've just asked *politely*... wait, there no COPYRIGHT/DISCLAIMER of any sort attached to the comment,--I have not to if it wasn't clear,--to use the file and got *only* angry barking for no reasons.

EDIT: I've requested locking the related thread where's the comment is attached. Once that's done, I will revert the commit removing the file. Blame your incompetence to not have added AUTHORSHIP/COPYRIGHT/DISCLAIMER on comments posted on public forums on yourself--I couldn't care less.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From wikipedia:

"In all countries where the Berne Convention standards apply, copyright is automatic […]."
"Once an idea has been reduced to tangible form, for example by securing it in a fixed medium (such as a drawing, sheet music, photograph, a videotape, or a computer file), the copyright holder is entitled to enforce his or her exclusive rights."
"In 1989 the United States enacted the Berne Convention Implementation Act, amending the 1976 Copyright Act to conform to most of the provisions of the Berne Convention. As a result, the use of copyright notices has become optional to claim copyright, because the Berne Convention makes copyright automatic."

In free software, licensing is used to ALLOW the distribution of the software, not to prevent it. The fact that we usually don't care to enforce the copyright for our shared scripts doesn't mean that we don't have the right to do that.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I firmly believe in Hanlon's Razor, and I prefer to ascribe systemd to that rather than to international intrigue.

I believe systemd is what happens when too many people who came to Linux because it was getting Kewl start programming for it without having really learned anything. One othre thing about this - I recently realized is that their image of shell scripting was formed by .bat files, and they don't understand how real the difference between .sh and .bat really is. On Windows anything real is done with a binary - never a .bat file. So that's part of what they brought to Linux. In Windows horribly glommed programs are normal.

That is sufficient to explain what has happened. While international intrigue is possible, it is not necessary.
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