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Worth installing gentoo with Win 10 Uefi
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lum-X
Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:54 am    Post subject: Worth installing gentoo with Win 10 Uefi Reply with quote

Hello there.

I was wondering if it is worth installing Gentoo on my new Sager NP8652 with Windows 10 UEFI . I need Windows for some coursework but i would like to get back on Gentoo again instead of using Fedora in VM.

I have checked the guide on Gentoo UEFI installation but i don't know if it is worth installing and going through all that again.

Also i forgot if there is a way to backup an image of Gentoo with boatloader so in case in format my laptop I will be able to restore my Gentoo installation without going through the whole process again.



Thanks
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I was wondering if it is worth installing Gentoo on my new Sager NP8652 with Windows 10 UEFI .
You tell me.
Quote:
I have checked the guide on Gentoo UEFI installation but i don't know if it is worth installing and going through all that again.
That thing is so much scarier than it really needs to be. All you need to do is
1) Backup Windows completely. Making a mistake without them sucks.
2) shrink windows using windows tools. This is important because other tools are not 100% when working with any windows format.
3) install Gentoo normally, with no need of a /boot partition
4) Read https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Efibootmgr and add one or two Gentoo boot options and put the kernels in the right place alongside the Windows ones. You will need to press some key if you don't want to boot the default, and you can set what default is.
5) You may need to turn secureboot off about 3 or 4 times, but gentoo should start normally after that.

I can't really tell you anything about the specifics of your board, but it shouldn't be hard to figure out.

Quote:
Also i forgot if there is a way to backup an image of Gentoo with boatloader so in case in format my laptop I will be able to restore my Gentoo installation without going through the whole process again.
Easy, and bootloader? What bootloader? :)

A little cleverness removes the bootloader headache completely.
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lum-X
Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have forgot most of things about Gentoo. Last time I used it was about 2 years ago.

Yes i know windows tools are the best ones when it comes to shrinking disk partitions.

What i meant with bootloader was the boot partition, grub, and whatever is needed to boot (android things, sorry) . Lets say i backup the whole Gentoo and I format my Windows partition. What I have to do after installing Windows again is just restore that image and I will have Gentoo grub and boot partitions restored like in the previous time.

I hope i was clear enough :?

Can you please tell me what do you mean install gentoo normally without boot partition ??

I have checked this guide
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Sakaki's_EFI_Install_Guide/Creating_and_Booting_the_Minimal-Install_Image_on_USB
and
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/UEFI_Gentoo_Quick_Install_Guide

and i would like to keep secure boot on and have grup to choose what i would like to boot.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouch. It looks like they updated the handbook another few times since I installed last.

Quote:
I have forgot most of things about Gentoo. Last time I used it was about 2 years ago.

As Neddy says, Gentoo is really like eating an elephant. Best do it one plate at a time. Following the nonstandard instructions might be okay, but it might not. Adding 10-20 "nonstandard" options increases the complexity quite a bit.

Any backup software should be programmable to copy everything to a specified location. Then you would just need to repeat whatever steps are required to inform the firmware the OS exists if it forgot. No backup software can help you there. That step varies with boot method. That really shouldn't matter because you are going to have to use a live media to restore anyway. It should be simple like rerunning grup --install or other one liner. Not a big deal.

What I meant with no /boot is that it isn't necessary. Windows already has a partition set aside for kernels and that is where the firmware expects them to be anyway. /boot was only ever a covenant place to put kernels. UEFI also makes grub etc. obsolete since the firmware can literally do everything it can, without the extra layer. Looks like your guide is going that way too.

Actually, a third option looks like the best one you could take. Just make another VM and install Gentoo. Once you get the system working the way you want use a backup tool like rsnapshot to back it up and then restore it to the real hardware. Doing that is low commitment since you won't make any changes until you are sure you want to.
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Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.
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lum-X
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i decide to install it I will go to real hardware and compile everything as needed and stay there. I will make a backup copy of my system and I will plan what I will do because these 2 weeks are too busy for me because I have mid term and I am in grad school now.

I guess then restoring grub wont be a problem. I just have to skip few steps and after i do a installation in UEFI i will learn the whole procedure.

This UEFI and M$ have complicated lots of things and I would like to stay with UEFI and not go back to legacy BIOS.

2 more questions. should i use Grub 2 and OpenRC ??
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would stay away from grub 2 only because it isn't really needed. The computer already has the software to provide a menu from which you select the OS you want to run. You needed a bootloader with MBR systems. UEFI includes one already. Of course, if you want to use it there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

In my line of work there are a lot of new airplanes that are covered in unnecessary bells and whistles. They frequently break and drive up maintenance costs. There are many very simple designs that are over 60 years old and are still in service and they practically never break. Personally, I'd go for the KISS (Keep It Simple) design.

UEFI really is a fairly solid system. It takes a little bit of learning but once you do it isn't really any more complicated than the old BIOS.

I would also stick with OpenRC since it is a much better product in my opinion, but that question is really enough to start a 20 page flame war, so I'm not going to elaborate too much. That one is purely a personal choice and one that is easy to change at any point so I wouldn't worry too much.
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a little off topic, but if you have a separate windows purchased separately from the hardware then you might consider putting windows on a vm.

That gives you simultaneous access to both windows and gentoo. But it won't work with oem windows.

I just installed a server with uefi and gentoo with grub2 boot loader, but i didn't dual boot it. IMO dual boot is pretty useless compared to a vm. Other people feel differently of course.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
But it won't work with oem windows.
I may be walking on eggshells here, but that isn't clear cut.

Oem windows may only be installed on one machine, and many be permissible to move it to a virtual machine, and depending on the situation, may be movable to a virtual machine. A friend of mine who works personally in tech support said it is legal as long as you keep the old physical hardware and don't make copies. The legality of this seems grey to me and I'm not a lawyer so I can't be definitive about it.
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Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.
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lum-X
Tux's lil' helper
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2015 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have the windows copy that came with Sager laptop.

If i install Gentoo i will install it in my PC. No virtual machine and Gentoo for me. I have never done it when i was installing Gentoo for the first time and I wont do it now. I like Gentoo because of customization and because you can learn soooo much about Linux and you PC.

I first have to finish the mid terms and then take a weekend to finish installing Gentoo or just wait for Christmas break if things get too hard in School. :(
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1clue
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@The Doctor,

In my experience with this, putting Windows on a VM causes the installer to think it's not the same machine, even if it is. In my experience with tech support, I've had a hard drives fry on systems we bought, and the manufacturer keyed the install CDs to every 50 serial numbers or so, would not install on anything else. So we had to order multiple installer CDs for systems with the same exact type, brought to us on the same truck when hard drives started to go.

It's been some years since I messed with that, but that's what I mean by OEM Windows installations not being usable in a VM.

@lum-X,

I wasn't suggesting that you install Gentoo as a guest VM on a Windows host, I was suggesting you install Windows as a guest VM on a Gentoo host. KVM works fine and there are lots of virtual machine tools out there.

Good luck and have fun.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
It's been some years since I messed with that, but that's what I mean by OEM Windows installations not being usable in a VM.
Yes, the work around is to use a clean Windows install with the OEM key. Of course, this isn't exactly predictable.
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Apologies if I take a while to respond. I'm currently working on the dematerialization circuit for my blue box.
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