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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg,

The why of systemd is a political discussion.
Feel free to join in over there.
Threads discussing systemd usually descend into flame fests and get locked fairly quickly.
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josephg
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sorry i don't want to engage this thread in flame wars about any specific software, as this op is not about that.. thanks for the reminder! i'm going to take that bit out.. and hope this discussion can continue re thread topic.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg,

That was posted as a reminder to others, most of whom should know better by now.
Leave you post as it is
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Cyker
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh man, you wanted to avoid dependency hell and decided to use Gentoo?! I'm afraid it is probably worse here than most binary distros! :lol:

But you're doing well so far; I had to install it 7-8 times the first time I tried to build a Gentoo system because I kept finding that a decision I'd made earlier without enough info was later having unwanted consequences :lol:

You do really need to go through the documentation very carefully when installing Gentoo but even then it isn't as up to date as one would want due to the rapid changes that have been happening lately.

The main trick is getting the base system set up right - This is where the documentation really helps; The rest can usually be fixed by hacking make.conf, package.use and package.mask until things emerge without pulling in everything but the kitchen sink :)

The thing you need most with Gentoo is time - If you're not sure about something, I find it's best to ask before changing a setting and hopefully you'll get helpful replies before the holier-than-thou types start popping up. This forum is still a good place for help but you have to ignore such negative people.


Regarding why throwing things away - I assume this is because udev NEEDS systemd to compile (Yay dependencies), but not to run, so if one really wanted udev, you could install systemd, install udev, then remove systemd.
However, this is a bit redundant now since we have eudev.


Regarding removing stuff you accidentally installed:

emerge --pretend --depclean is a very handy command for getting rid of stuff that has been pulled in by mistake. If you remove the original package or change its useflags, that doesn't automatically uninstall dependencies - This command will. I ALWAYS use the --pretend (-p) param so I can see what emerge is going to do BEFORE it does it as sometimes it can do really stupid things.

You can also do e.g. "emerge --pretend --depclean sys-lib/thingything" to remove a specific package first, then run "emerge --pretend --depclean" afterwards to remove all the dependencies that package had, which are no longer needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyker wrote:
I had to install it 7-8 times the first time I tried to build a Gentoo system because I kept finding that a decision I'd made earlier without enough info was later having unwanted consequences :lol:

i probably went through all that lot you achieved in 7-8 times even before i had finished installing :lol: i almost chucked it a few times :(

Cyker wrote:
You do really need to go through the documentation very carefully when installing Gentoo but even then it isn't as up to date as one would want due to the rapid changes that have been happening lately.

sadly not unusual when documentation isn't in tandem with development. and then developers end up in a parallel universe to their users. this is where openbsd stands out!

Cyker wrote:
Regarding removing stuff you accidentally installed:

emerge --pretend --depclean is a very handy command for getting rid of stuff that has been pulled in by mistake. If you remove the original package or change its useflags, that doesn't automatically uninstall dependencies - This command will. I ALWAYS use the --pretend (-p) param so I can see what emerge is going to do BEFORE it does it as sometimes it can do really stupid things.

You can also do e.g. "emerge --pretend --depclean sys-lib/thingything" to remove a specific package first, then run "emerge --pretend --depclean" afterwards to remove all the dependencies that package had, which are no longer needed.

thanks Cyker, your post has been very timely, and helpful in salvaging my system. i cleaned out quite a lot of cruft. i still need to get rid of more..


Last edited by josephg on Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:20 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Cyker
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I could help :)

Good luck with the clear-out; That has also been my raison d'etre with Gentoo since I moved to it from Slackware!
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

josephg wrote:
i have no problems re eudev.

i followed the wiki here: http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Gentoo_Without_systemd
and made my use flags as you see above. i also masked systemd and udev.

wiki says "Masking udev will not result in a broken system; Portage is smart enough to automatically replace udev by sys-fs/eudev: the systemd-free fork of udev."
didn't happen automatically though. i had to manually make it happen.

back to op. i want to understand if i'm using use flags correctly, and i want to uninstall all/most stuff i've accidentally installed.


I'm relatively new to Gentoo as well, but I believe there is a difference between masking a package and adding a use flag ala "-package" to make.conf.

The article in question instructs you to mask udev, which means add it to /etc/portage/package.mask, but you added a use flag "-udev" to make.conf. The latter will leave you without support for device discovery, power and storage device support, etc. in every package compiled on your system. You probably want some of that functionality, however, just handled by a different package (eudev) instead.

Good job persevering, and welcome to Gentoo!

Edit: by the way, there's nothing wrong with dependencies per se. In unix land, programs are meant to serve a single purpose, which means leaving work for other programs to deal with.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Astronome wrote:
The article in question instructs you to mask udev, which means add it to /etc/portage/package.mask, but you added a use flag "-udev" to make.conf. The latter will leave you without support for device discovery, power and storage device support, etc. in every package compiled on your system. You probably want some of that functionality, however, just handled by a different package (eudev) instead.


thank you for pointing it out. i realised much later that the flag udev refers not just to udev but also to eudev. and i removed -udev.

Astronome wrote:
by the way, there's nothing wrong with dependencies per se.


there might be nothing wrong with dependencies, but i don't want to install dependencies which i can't/won't ever use. also there are somethings which i just don't want on my systems.

dependency hell is when unnecessary dependencies pull in more unwanted dependencies which pull in yet more.. and so on

for eg, mplayer/mpv want bluray/wayland/etc as dependencies. there are a lot more worse behaved programs.

Astronome wrote:
In unix land, programs are meant to serve a single purpose, which means leaving work for other programs to deal with.


this i completely agree with :) unfortunately, not all programs/devs subscribe to the unix philosophy!
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