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depontius
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:

and therein lies one of the political issues... the tying of gnome (largely funded by redhat) to systemd (largely funded by redhat), with the removal of the previously existing code that allowed it to work without systemd, with the primary objective of forcing people to adopt systemd and, by extension, redhat (where systemd is the binding layer to rule all distros. making other distros essentially redhat tweaks).

Fortunately for me, gnome 3 was bad enough that I switched desktops before gnome became tied to systemd.


This might be moving toward "The politics of systemd, Part 2".

The error most of us make is in thinking of systemd as a cancerous init system. Realize that in order to appreciate it more properly you need to look to Windows, which many/most of us believe is the philosophical origin of systemd, after all.

In Windows, NOBODY talks directly (It may be possible, but I don't believe it is commonly done.) to the kernel, they have sets of system-level wrappers. So think in terms of a BOLD, SHINY, NEW FUTURE!!!

wayland / weston - desktop gui functions
glibc - basic library functions
systemd - system-level interface
(probably more for other aspects, don't know)

So that's your Brave New World - it's not Linux or GNU/Linux any more, you're running on systemd, which happens to run on a Linux kernel. I suspect that systemd is working even harder to create a stranglehold position in the container arena, which is less mature than bare or even virtualized metal. Along that line, I expect to see more future in "containerized applications" as an attempt (possibly feeble) to bolster system security.
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dantrell
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
in other news, went back to systemd & gnome. sorry. :(

No need to be sorry. If systemd is what works for you, use it. I will just point out that there are reasons other than hate behind the opposition to its implementation but that belongs on the thread covering the politics of systemd.

Out of curiosity, what were you trying before and what drove you back to systemd?

I ask, because if you were using GNOME Without Systemd, I would like to know if there is room for improvement.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dantrell wrote:
axl wrote:
in other news, went back to systemd & gnome. sorry. :(

No need to be sorry. If systemd is what works for you, use it. I will just point out that there are reasons other than hate behind the opposition to its implementation but that belongs on the thread covering the politics of systemd.

Out of curiosity, what were you trying before and what drove you back to systemd?

I ask, because if you were using GNOME Without Systemd, I would like to know if there is room for improvement.


uhm, i wanted to try that, gnome without systemd.

i basically just wanted to see how it was for the folks trying to do things WITHOUT systemd. it's hard to avoid it. its much easier to adopt it.

in a roll over slave kinda way. from what i can gather.

not really sure if people dont have the technical competence to work with it, or just are philosophically dedicated to other ways. either way, for me is easier to just go with it.

wasted a week to see how openrc people got screwed over. and they did. i'm sorry for them. and i'm not trying to patronize anyone. just saying wish that didn't happen to me. just the idea of having an unofficial overlay for my wm... seems rebel without a cause. i dislike that.

i told somebody recently that linux is the kind of os that allows you to install any wm with any distro. he replied like instantly that it will cost tons of time. he was a n00b, but much smarter then me.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
axl wrote:

in other news, went back to systemd & gnome. sorry. :(


PS i'm really sorry. i want to hate systemd. but i can't. and it's mostly gnome. but not only. it's love it or hate it. and i can't hate it. sorry.


and therein lies one of the political issues... the tying of gnome (largely funded by redhat) to systemd (largely funded by redhat), with the removal of the previously existing code that allowed it to work without systemd, with the primary objective of forcing people to adopt systemd and, by extension, redhat (where systemd is the binding layer to rule all distros. making other distros essentially redhat tweaks).

Fortunately for me, gnome 3 was bad enough that I switched desktops before gnome became tied to systemd.


isn't kde/plasma tied too? i am not being a smart ass. i really dont know. the only kde i ever used was a cde on aix 4.3.

i know i first heard of these ideas (systemd and what it does) back in 2000s when e-17 people were talking about it. e-17 never materialized, but instead gnome-3 is kinda like what e-17 was supposed to be. and i mentioned that before, i REALLY REALLY like it. why is that a bad thing? coz redhat is backing that up?

there's all kinds of reasons to be upset about that. oracle buying sun and mysql coming along for the ride comes to mind. the big bad overlord. but other then systemd, redhat doesn't seem to me like the big bad wolf. I ALWAYS thought it was the big bad wolf. i remember other times in linux history when people thought and said that about them. with other changes in kernel around 2.2 and 2.4 and 2.6. but i stopped following the news, and linux ... kinda went on. despite redhat FUD.

the comparison with redhat is unfair for gentoo. NO distro compares to gentoo. in my mind gentoo reigns supreme. for portage, CFLAGS and USE. no other distro HAS these features.

as long as things are accepted inside the kernel, and linus is going along with it...

:) in the end it's a matter of taste. out of curiosity, what was your preferred wm?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

depontius wrote:
axl wrote:
on the other hand, clearly other people here dont use cyrus-imap. which i find weird tbh.



Long long ago I ran Cyrus, and I spent some time with UWash. Then at some point I moved to Dovecot and have been there ever since. The changes were so far in the past that I don't remember why I did so, any more.


i never tried dovecot. i know i wanted. from what i heard, it was supposed to be a cyrus+. congrats :)

didn't find a good reason to move from cyrus. had what i wanted. mysql auth. virtual users. replication.

love sieve. wonder if i should look at dovecot.

what do you think of horde?

kinda upset you can't install it through portage anymore. pear install... sux.
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:

isn't kde/plasma tied too? i am not being a smart ass. i really dont know. the only kde i ever used was a cde on aix 4.3.


I don't use kde, tried it several times, but never cared for it, so I can't tell you for sure. I know there are people here using kde that aren't using systemd.

Quote:

i know i first heard of these ideas (systemd and what it does) back in 2000s when e-17 people were talking about it. e-17 never materialized, but instead gnome-3 is kinda like what e-17 was supposed to be. and i mentioned that before, i REALLY REALLY like it. why is that a bad thing? coz redhat is backing that up?


First, enlightenment still exists (and in fact, my favorite desktop in 22ish years of using Linux was gnome 1 and e-16, which I used until sometime around gnome-2.14 when they finally added enough features back to be usable)

Second, there's nothing wrong with liking gnome 3. It's just not anything I want to use because I hate the interface, how they've continued to strip useful things out, etc. Currently, I'm using mate (a fork of gnome 2), but depending on what those devs do, I'm willing to either fork or switch to something else.

Third, RedHat has become the Microsoft of the Linux world, looking to embrace, extend and extinguish Linux into a proprietary piece of software they that hold all the keys to. They're essentially trying to co-opt the GPL and leverage the work of thousands of people while forcing everyone to funnel money to them if you want any kind of support. systemd essentially exists to destroy any competing distro, making them clones of RH.

As for the ideas (whatever you think systemd does that is good), if you care to enumerate what you think is so awesome, I'd be glad to have the discussion about why maybe it's not so good or, at a minimum, why it's a horrible idea to tie it all together into a single blob that continues to metastasize while refusing to work with anything else.

Quote:

there's all kinds of reasons to be upset about that. oracle buying sun and mysql coming along for the ride comes to mind. the big bad overlord. but other then systemd, redhat doesn't seem to me like the big bad wolf. I ALWAYS thought it was the big bad wolf. i remember other times in linux history when people thought and said that about them. with other changes in kernel around 2.2 and 2.4 and 2.6. but i stopped following the news, and linux ... kinda went on. despite redhat FUD.


I remember the 90s quite well, with RedHat already "owning" a bunch of core Linux developers and then going out and buying more after the IPO (buying the gcc team and whatnot). It didn't phsae me much back then, but we did see some problems arise, like with how the maintainership of glibc stagnated badly due to dictatorial rule by one of their devs (if you were oblivious to it, thank your distro maintainers). At worst, RH kinda became bullies for a while... but over the last few years, after the CEO change, there seems to have been a significant culture change and I do see them as a considerable threat to the long term health of Linux and the community's values that got it to where it is.

Quote:

as long as things are accepted inside the kernel, and linus is going along with it...


Some day, Linus will grow sick of maintianing the kernel... what happens then?

Besides, systemd exists precisely because they couldn't co-opt Linus... to quote Poettering, systemd talks to the kernel, everything else talks to systemd.

Quote:

:) in the end it's a matter of taste. out of curiosity, what was your preferred wm?


Over the years, I've used a bunch... I don't need something to hold my hand, so I really don't need a full blown desktop, but I'm using mate mostly out of comfort and habit. I remember my days of cde, fvwm, etc quite fondly too. The desktop was a solved problem for me by 2000 and has only continued to degrade since.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
First, enlightenment still exists (and in fact, my favorite desktop in 22ish years of using Linux was gnome 1 and e-16, which I used until sometime around gnome-2.14 when they finally added enough features back to be usable)


i know it still exists. e-16 is my most used wm. but it's esentially the same code it was 15 years ago. or at least my impression about it is that it never changed.

on the other hand, e-17 changed a million times but was never ready. one of the reasons i switched to gentoo back in 2000/2001 was that it had a portage overlay that offered e-17.

but even today e-17 is not ready. terminology isn't on par with gnome-terminal. and the filemanager seems childish to me. all in all, again, my impression is that gnome got there first.

Quote:
Third, RedHat has become the Microsoft of the Linux world, looking to embrace, extend and extinguish Linux into a proprietary piece of software they that hold all the keys to. They're essentially trying to co-opt the GPL and leverage the work of thousands of people while forcing everyone to funnel money to them if you want any kind of support. systemd essentially exists to destroy any competing distro, making them clones of RH.


redhat was always the microsoft of the linux world. i think i said that last night, so no point going over it again. all in all i think you are right about what you are saying here.


Quote:
As for the ideas (whatever you think systemd does that is good), if you care to enumerate what you think is so awesome, I'd be glad to have the discussion about why maybe it's not so good or, at a minimum, why it's a horrible idea to tie it all together into a single blob that continues to metastasize while refusing to work with anything else.


again. first time i heard about the idea of systemd (not systemd itself) was while i watched the mailling list for e-17. the devs back then were talking about the possibility of having the kernel load modules for hw you add (what udev does), talk to kernel (maybe interact with netfilter), look at the logs (journal) and set perms in dev; etc. they were worried about stuff like this because they thought if they had stuff like this they could push e for mobile market.

i will say this. back then i thought this would push linux in a windows type direction and i didn't like it. now... i still dont know.

Quote:
I remember the 90s quite well, with RedHat already "owning" a bunch of core Linux developers and then going out and buying more after the IPO (buying the gcc team and whatnot). It didn't phsae me much back then, but we did see some problems arise, like with how the maintainership of glibc stagnated badly due to dictatorial rule by one of their devs (if you were oblivious to it, thank your distro maintainers). At worst, RH kinda became bullies for a while... but over the last few years, after the CEO change, there seems to have been a significant culture change and I do see them as a considerable threat to the long term health of Linux and the community's values that got it to where it is.


I am trying to remember what was that bothered me around kernel 2.4. i think i was something that had to do with alsa, and everyone was pissed that RH is pushing everyone into RH clones. I can't remember. it's not important. what is important, is that up until now, linux is fine. i think, that's a thing to be thankful about. for all of us.

Quote:
Some day, Linus will grow sick of maintianing the kernel... what happens then?


this is a reason to worry without having to throw systemd into the discussion. we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Quote:
Besides, systemd exists precisely because they couldn't co-opt Linus... to quote Poettering, systemd talks to the kernel, everything else talks to systemd.


this kinda makes sense, for me, IN SOME SCENARIOS.

let me try to explain again.


systemd is a hard dependency only if you want a fancy WM. and there is good reason for that.

but if you are building a non-gui server, systemd could be easily avoided. so maybe the big bad RH doesn't want to change all linux kingdom to look like itself. (i remember a dr who episode here - the end of times - lol).

systemd only comes into play when you need a WM. and it comes into play because some linux folks want to sell more idiot proof linux machines. that's why they made systemd in the first place. at least i think that's why. not to bother u & me but sell more tables and notebooks and maybe phones powered by linux. and for that... systemd kinda is a requirement.

so again, from my point of view systemd is not the enemy. kde/gnome devs that hardcode that dependency are the enemy.

well, maybe not the enemy. seems to me, we're just taken for a ride as unwilling testers. it's a small price to pay. a little bit for free time, for freedom and free beer :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Team,

Our The Politics of systemd Part 2[/topic thread is ---> that way.
Most discussions on systemd turn in to pantomime or flames and get locked.

I can move the systemd chatter to the above thread if you like.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a category in these forums where my topic about my experience with software in general could survive as is? I dont mind if people go offtopic on my thread. In fact i kinda welcome open discussion. Maybe i posted in the wrong category, but please dont merge me with that topic. This isn't just about systemd.

Also, sorry if i broke the rules. :(


EDIT: maybe move to chat or offtopic?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl,

Nobody has broken any rules yet. The systemd chatter in this thread has been quite restrained ... so far.
The risk is that as others join in, we get into the flames and pantomime that have caused so many other threads to be locked.
Drive by flaming if you like.

As long as the systemd discussion in this thread continues 'as is' then all is well, there is no need to move it elsewhere.

Suggesting that you should use Off the Wall would be cruel.
Reminiscing and chatter would fit in Gentoo Chat, or if you are looking for help with non Gentoo things, Unsupported Software.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBH, chatter is what i had in mind. I've been alone for quite a long time. Didn't feel the need to talk to others about linux; but now i feel that is changing. So this is what this thread should be about. But instead of me going into other people threads to tell them my opinion, i wait for others in my thread to tell me their opinion about my opinion :))

PS "drive by flaming"... lol. good one :))
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saellaven
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

axl wrote:
saellaven wrote:
First, enlightenment still exists (and in fact, my favorite desktop in 22ish years of using Linux was gnome 1 and e-16, which I used until sometime around gnome-2.14 when they finally added enough features back to be usable)


i know it still exists. e-16 is my most used wm. but it's esentially the same code it was 15 years ago. or at least my impression about it is that it never changed.

on the other hand, e-17 changed a million times but was never ready. one of the reasons i switched to gentoo back in 2000/2001 was that it had a portage overlay that offered e-17.

but even today e-17 is not ready. terminology isn't on par with gnome-terminal. and the filemanager seems childish to me. all in all, again, my impression is that gnome got there first.


I haven't bothered to take a look at e-17, in part because of the mess post-e-16, but mostly because by the time e-17 came around, it was steeped in, though not necessarily totally dependent upon, software that I don't want (wayland, systemd, etc).

Quote:

Quote:
As for the ideas (whatever you think systemd does that is good), if you care to enumerate what you think is so awesome, I'd be glad to have the discussion about why maybe it's not so good or, at a minimum, why it's a horrible idea to tie it all together into a single blob that continues to metastasize while refusing to work with anything else.


again. first time i heard about the idea of systemd (not systemd itself) was while i watched the mailling list for e-17. the devs back then were talking about the possibility of having the kernel load modules for hw you add (what udev does), talk to kernel (maybe interact with netfilter), look at the logs (journal) and set perms in dev; etc. they were worried about stuff like this because they thought if they had stuff like this they could push e for mobile market.


It a HUGE mistake by numerous wm devs (including the proprietary ones like Windows) to force everyone onto an identical interface regardless of what the device is being used for. I want a desktop wm on my desktop, I don't want to be touching my screen and getting fingerprints all over it, the standard desktop monitor doesn't need to hide info from us to save screen real estate, etc.

mobile doesn't require the things systemd offers anyway... all of those things were already available and, imo, in a better format. A lot of what systemd does originated with a systemd developer with a NIH itch doing something and then trying to justify it months later as the right thing to do... and most of that NIH didn't improve the ecosystem any, it just pushed the systemd ecosystem closer to a poor clone of Windows.

Worst of all, intertwining it all together with PID 1 is a security nightmare waiting to happen, some of which have already started, and it's only going to get worse... so, the ex post facto justification for saying systemd exists to do things like shore up security (X running as root) belie the reality that systemd is, at best, alpha quality software that is always changing, barely tested and which few people fully understand the internals of.

Quote:

I am trying to remember what was that bothered me around kernel 2.4. i think i was something that had to do with alsa, and everyone was pissed that RH is pushing everyone into RH clones. I can't remember. it's not important. what is important, is that up until now, linux is fine. i think, that's a thing to be thankful about. for all of us.


I have never had a problem with RH polluting its own distro. I started out with dabbling on Slackware back in 93/94 and by the time I started college in 95, I was dual booting between OS/2 (personal stuff, BBS, etc) and RH (all of my comp eng/comp sci stuff, since the departments ran variants of UNIX exclusively, so it was easier to do my stuff locally in linux (I lived 40 minutes away from school) and then submit it).

Quote:

let me try to explain again.


systemd is a hard dependency only if you want a fancy WM. and there is good reason for that.


Actually, it shouldn't be and there isn't. Remember, GNOME 3 (if that's your definition of a fancy wm) existed for a while without systemd support and then promptly adopted it and deprecated non-systemd support.

Quote:

but if you are building a non-gui server, systemd could be easily avoided. so maybe the big bad RH doesn't want to change all linux kingdom to look like itself. (i remember a dr who episode here - the end of times - lol).


systemd is now on virtually every current major server distro, including RHEL/CentOS. The entire justification behind systemd, is to create a unified platform so that everything works with systemd instead of having to worry about what other distros are doing.

Quote:

systemd only comes into play when you need a WM. and it comes into play because some linux folks want to sell more idiot proof linux machines. that's why they made systemd in the first place. at least i think that's why. not to bother u & me but sell more tables and notebooks and maybe phones powered by linux. and for that... systemd kinda is a requirement.


It was possible before systemd ever came around and, if systemd wasn't out to bother you and I, they wouldn't have waged the political war that they have, the entire point of which is to force everyone to adopt it.

Quote:

well, maybe not the enemy. seems to me, we're just taken for a ride as unwilling testers. it's a small price to pay. a little bit for free time, for freedom and free beer :)


It's a HUGE price to pay, particularly because it takes away your freedom.
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