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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:49 pm    Post subject: Install help Reply with quote

Hi all,

So I'm pretty much a linux noob, and in my past battles with other distros I've always been able to at least install/boot.

I've heard gentoo is something of a nightmare to work with for people like me...but I have no choice.

I've tried a few different .iso files from the site and they either won't boot at all, or when they do load, I get nothing but a mouse cursor on a black screen.

I see many recommend using a boot cd to install, but then what? Does anyone know of a decent guide besides the 'official' one for installing?

Thanks for any help!
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pilla
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft, the Handbook is a pretty good guide.

As for the Live CD, I recommend SystemRescueCD. But any Live CD recent enough should work too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Install help Reply with quote

Megadaft wrote:
I've heard gentoo is something of a nightmare to work with for people like me...but I have no choice.

Megadaft ... welcome to gentoo ... larry the cow holding your easter eggs hostage?

Megadaft wrote:
I've tried a few different .iso files from the site and they either won't boot at all, or when they do load, I get nothing but a mouse cursor on a black screen. I see many recommend using a boot cd to install, but then what? Does anyone know of a decent guide besides the 'official' one for installing?

The gentoo handbook is the only supported guide ... its just a matter of following it. If/when you have issues you can then point to the section and we will hopefully have some idea of what the issue is, and what you've done prior. As for boot disks, the fact you see a mouse cursor suggest this isn't a minimal iso, the liveDVD perhaps (and it's attempting to provide you an GUI ... and failing). You should be able to use any boot disk that supports networking and chroot ... I'd recommend sysresccd (gentoo based ... and you can follow the handbook to the letter).

best ... khay
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha...no, Larry isn't the problem, this is for work and we have a customer using our boards on a linux build and I need to get gentoo up and running here for some testing.

Yes, I am trying the live CD...reading about tarballs and stage 3's had my head spinning, so I punted and went with the live CD.

I'm just about to burn SystemRescueCD, but won't know what to do after that...I'm assuming it will get me to a command line. I'll consult the handbook again, but rest assured, I'll be back...

Thanks, guys.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I don't see anything in the handbook regarding any installation other than using their image...but you guys are suggesting using a restore CD and following the directions. Is it possible there are multiple versions of the handbook and I'm using the Cliffnotes version?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft,

Unlike a binary distro, none of the code from the boot media will end up in your install.
The boot media is just a toolkit you use to accomplish the install.

Your minimal binary Gentoo is delivered in the stage3 tarball, which you download to the install target during the course of the install.


Megadaft wrote:
... we have a customer using our boards ...
You need to choose boot media to suit your install target.
For Intel/AMD CPUs System Rescue CD is a good choice.

Follow the Gentoo Handbook
Note that the handbook varies by target architecture.

When you get to the end of that your install will be capable of booting and building more software.
That's covered in other guides.

If "your board" is something like a Raspberry Pi, you probably won't want to build software on the target.
Gentoo can help with that too.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Neddy.

So I decided to skip all the boot disk stuff and just stick with the minimal iso...to be honest, I still don't see anything in the handbook regarding installation using anything but their image. I still have no clue how to 'install' gentoo, as I'm assuming it's just running off the disc.

I was able to get the minimal install 'running', and now need to figure out how to mount a usb stick and attempt to install BlueZ.

We manufacture custom keyboards, that's what I meant by 'boards'...poor choice of words on my part...one of our customers is running their software on gentoo and we need to be able to test our prototypes in this environment.

Thanks for the input, I don't know how you guys do it...I can see how Bill Gates took over the world, this command line stuff is no fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft,

For a random LiveCD, there is one extra step.
Code:
mkdir /mnt/gentoo

Its documented Installation Alternatives

The minimal *.iso is very minimal and maybe you don't need an install for testing your keyboards unless you also need to build custom software too.

The Gentoo LiveDVD (not CD) is a fully fledged Gentoo that runs off a DVD or a USB Stick.
If you choose to run it from USB, it also has a 'persistent' mode, so that changes you make persist across reboots.

I've not checked if its has a bluetooth stack or not. The guys in #gentoo-ten on freenode will know.

Quote:
I can see how Bill Gates took over the world ...

Heh. It was because people had MSDOS (which Microsoft bought) on their home PCs and when Windows 3.1 came out (the first useful Windows version) parents took it home. As a result, a whole generation grew up with windows. So Microsoft became the beneficiary of software piracy. That's my theory anyway.
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davidm
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also keep in mind that there really isn't one Gentoo "environment". Gentoo isn't like Ubuntu or Debian where typically there is a certain set of programs which are installed on almost all systems. Gentoo is extremely user customizable. For instance many users run systemd, others don't and use openrc. Many run from the CLI (command line interface) while others install Desktop Environments such as KDE or GNOME. Also users can run all sorts of different kernels and are even encouraged to custom compile their own kernels. This could be very significant for instance in getting certain keyboard support working.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah...the more I read the more I realize how far in over my head I am.

At least I can say I 'tried'...and have a few forum posts to prove it :)
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft wrote:
So I decided to skip all the boot disk stuff and just stick with the minimal iso...to be honest, I still don't see anything in the handbook regarding installation using anything but their image. I still have no clue how to 'install' gentoo, as I'm assuming it's just running off the disc.

Megadaft ... believe it or not, but that is covered in the handbook ;) I expect your 'install' is something of the nature of an installer, and that you will click it and be prompted to answer a number of questions (networking, HD, etc, etc) and it will dump a readymade "gentoo" on disk, nope, none of that ... you are the installer, and the gentoo you install is the one you effectively build (that is the primary reason why we like it).

Megadaft wrote:
Thanks for the input, I don't know how you guys do it...I can see how Bill Gates took over the world, this command line stuff is no fun.

Ummm ... take a look at the above location bar, that path is a *nix path, not an MSDOS path ;). As far as the command line stuff goes, its *computation*, thats what computers do, or are good at, they are not good at {use,dis}ability interfaces. For example, if I need to select (by criteria) 10,000 files and do something with them (lets say rename) the last thing I need is an interface presenting me with "my files" ... I need to use a computer, and so program the criteria, action, etc. With a cli that is trivial ... with a gui I am contrained by whatever the software developer has decided are the sorts of computation I might engage in. So, you have it upside down, its the gui thats "no fun" ... unless you want your fun comes ready-made and all sharp edges rounded off.

best ... khay
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear you, you're absolutely correct...but I would assume there are relatively few out there with your abilities. In my circle, I'm the only one who can even implement the 'rounded edge' packages you so eloquently described ;) GUI's are intuitive, if limiting, whereas this stuff and its nearly vertical learning curve takes a guy like me and reduces him primitive rock-hurler! I almost need another forum just to attempt comprehension of the responses I'm finding here...I wouldn't know a GNOME from a systemd from my rear, but we could talk about my deficiencies all night.

That being said, I do greatly appreciate the help and input, which has exceeded my expectations.

Unless I can get rid of 3 engineers, one marketing head, and a huge customer, I'm going to have to continue bugging people with my ignorance of all things *nix.

Off to revisit that handbook.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if I can talk for all Gentoo users, but I do believe we use a GUI to use the computer. And we drop to the command line to administer it. I personally have no GUI tools installed to manage my Gentoo computers, never had, never felt the need for them. There is just one administration tool - $EDITOR. Well, there are a few Gentoo specific tools that make life convenient, but they still are command line tools.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft,

Try the Gentoo LiveDVD. Its a ready made GUI that might just do what you need as is with not install required.
Its about 2GB of a download. If it does what you need, you are good. No need to install anything.

A long time ago, computers didn't have operating systems and multi-tasking was a curiosity. There was a few libraries you could compile into your program if you wanted. (No dynamic linking)

As I've been playing with computers for over 50 years, I've seen the console move from a teletype, to a text CRT to a graphics capable display.
There are a few old farts like me around Gentoo. Its an excellent tool for playing with computers.
Even the less experienced members of our community have gone through the learning curve you may not even need to undertake, at least not to solve your immediate problem.

Should you need Gentoo long term, don't look at the learning curve as a cliff, that will just put you off. Break the problem down into small pieces (plates of elephant) and solve each one in turn.

Hint: Using a random 64 bit Intel/AMD based system and following the handbook, is has been shown that its possible to copy/paste commands from the handbook into the install terminal and achieve a working install. The handbook changes with time, so it may not work today.

Your next steps should be,
a) try the LiveDVD from a USB stick. It might do what you need right now
b) using the LiveDVD from a USB stick, on a otherwise empty random 64 bit Intel/AMD based system, follow the handbook, installing into a terminal window.

Copy is highlight the text to be copied, paste is click the middle mouse button in the target window.
If your mouse is short of buttons, press the two button together.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Appreciate the advice, Neddy!

I did originally start with the liveCD, but it would not boot at all on the first two machines I tried (both x86), did boot on the 3rd (x64), but there was no display, just the mouse cursor.

I've gotten further, albeit really nowhere, with the minimal iso.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft,

The liveCD and liveDVD are entirely different and have entirely different use cases.

The CD is a minimal set of tools to accomplish a Gentoo install.
The DVD is a polished desktop install, several desktops in fact, that allow you to test drive Gentoo without installing anything.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I meant DVD...I downloaded both of the 3gig images, neither would work on my x86 machine.

I'm staring at a
Code:
livecd ~ #
prompt, but can't figure out how to edit fstab...says permission denied...am I not root like every other linux flavor I've ever seen?
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Megadaft,

You are root in the CD. The # prompt means root, the $ means normal user.

To edit /etc/fstab you do
Code:
nano -w /etc/fstab
but you really don't want to do that yet.
Try it and read the warning.

Heres an overview of the install process.
You boot the liveCD, it sets up an overlay root filesysten to give the illusion of a read write filesysen on the CD>
This lets you get networking up and things that would not work on a read only filesystem.

The liveCD provides a mount point called /mnt/gentoo. After you have partitioned your drive and made your filesystems, you mount the bits here.
This is where your Gentoo install will grow. Its empty right now.

To get some gentoo binaries, you fetch a stage3 tarball and untar it to /mnt/gentoo. None of the liveCD code goes here, so you can use any random liveCD you happen to have. Be careful not to untar to /. PCs there days have enough RAM for that to work without errors.

With /mnt/gentoo populated, you add a few things then chroot into /mnt/gentoo.
At this point your embryonic install is running as if its all there was but its still using the services provided by the boot media.

There is also a /etc/fstab here, which in the one you want to edit.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you trying to edit the fstab on ro filesystem?
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffoon, I have no idea what I'm doing.

Neddy, I can't get the LiveDVD to boot on any of my machines, it doesn't boot at all on any of my old Dell towers laying around...and they aren't that old.

It will boot on 3 other machines, but the default view once loaded seems to be the black screen with mouse cursor, as that's what I get on all three.

Unfortunately, I can't make it past your first step.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright, finally looking at a desktop, the LiveDVD actually worked on an old Lenovo laptop! Once again the screen went completely black for quite some time, but then a desktop just poofs into life...

The problem is that none of this happened:
Code:
Next the user will be greeted with a boot screen and progress bar. If the installation is done on a system with a non-US keyboard, make sure to immediately press Alt + F1 to switch to verbose mode and follow the prompt. If no selection is made in 10 seconds the default (US keyboard) will be accepted and the boot process will continue. Once the boot process completes, the user is automatically logged in to the "Live" Gentoo Linux environment as the root user, the super user. A root prompt is displayed on the current console, and one can switch to other consoles by pressing Alt + F2, Alt + F3 and Alt + F4. Get back to the one started on by pressing Alt + F1.


So no 'root prompt'...if I open Konsole, I'm given this prompt
Code:
gentoo@livecd ~ $


I'm trying to follow the handbook, really, but when the handbook doesn't match what I'm seeing...
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ctrl+Alt+F2

Will it get you to the root console? (I've never used this DVD)
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brought me to a black screen with a blinking cursor...now I'm stuck :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Use Alt+Arrow Right to switch between consoles, some may have root login.
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Megadaft
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be missing something...I had to reboot the machine after the ctrl+alt+F2

I'm back to the 'desktop', that combo doesn't seem to do anything for me regardless of at desktop or in Konsole.

Oh the fun...I think this weekend I'll attempt to build a car one screw at a time :)
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