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Spantou
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 1:55 pm    Post subject: Enough of Windows, don't want to lose PC on Gentoo install. Reply with quote

OK, I know enough on MBR's, partitioning, dual boots and so on, I think. Forgotten quite a lot too. Downloaded Gentoo i686, ISO'd it, disabled UEFI, CD first and it boots perfectly. Busy reading Sven Vermeulen's very good Linux-sea.pdf. Now for the real permanent install. The Lenovo G580, i3 2328M has 4Gig RAM installed, 1TB HDD. So, according to answers to bargava's question elsewhere here, the laptop can handle it.

Question 1. Are the files sizes for the online installation of the same order? My Internet bandwidth is not the most inexpensive and I would not like to start over in the middle of things. My monthly package is 4GB and I would like to top up or resize before I install Gentoo.

Question 2. How would the install affect my laptop? The G580 has Windows8_OS on drive C: and Lenovo One Key Recovery on drive D:, both on the same hard drive, obviously partitions. The decisions are made, but I need to get into a working environment with as few issues as possible. The fact that I will have to do the Sysadmin type of stuff is exactly the reason I am making the change.

Will the Gentoo minimal disc install overwrite the D: drive? I know how partitioning works. The MBR is still some mystery - approached with caution. Preferably I would like to take Windows off the PC completely, but I do not want to destroy things by my own stupidity. Mainly I would like to be able to start over again in case of mistakes.

Caveat. I understand nobody here can guarantee fail safety.

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No matter if you choose the actual Gentoo Install disc, or sysresccd, or anything else, the Gentoo installation will be performed by yourself. Questions about removing "D:" thus you will need to direct at yourself. ;)
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably a bit late but any hardware new enough to have UEFI should really run 64-bit Linux, not i686.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spantou wrote:

Question 1. Are the files sizes for the online installation of the same order? My Internet bandwidth is not the most inexpensive and I would not like to start over in the middle of things. My monthly package is 4GB and I would like to top up or resize before I install Gentoo.


Stage3, portage snapshot and the kernel add up to a little over a gigabyte (I think). you shouldn't have to download them again should you choose to start over. Just don't reformat the disk etc.

Spantou wrote:
Question 2. How would the install affect my laptop? The G580 has Windows8_OS on drive C: and Lenovo One Key Recovery on drive D:, both on the same hard drive, obviously partitions. The decisions are made, but I need to get into a working environment with as few issues as possible. The fact that I will have to do the Sysadmin type of stuff is exactly the reason I am making the change.

Will the Gentoo minimal disc install overwrite the D: drive? I know how partitioning works. The MBR is still some mystery - approached with caution. Preferably I would like to take Windows off the PC completely, but I do not want to destroy things by my own stupidity. Mainly I would like to be able to start over again in case of mistakes.

Caveat. I understand nobody here can guarantee fail safety.

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.


@bolded: the Gentoo installation is not a matter of click, click, next, finish. However you set up your disk space is your decision.
The installation medium is just something to boot into with the required tools to build and configure the system.

I'm assuming you've got a big partition sandwiched between two smaller ones. What I would do is shrink the big one, move the recovery partition (D:\) and then create a new one (or several, it's your choice) for Gentoo. I would do that from inside windows though, I've had windows spaz out and not boot before because I shrank a partition with gparted.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64
Start by reading the handbook available at this link.
Gentoo is a source based distro which means you compile all the software on the machine.
The resulting programs will be tailor made for your hardware.
Like others said this is not accomplished in a short time.
On the other hand you'll be learning a lot about Linux.
Gerard.
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http://www.sysresccd.org/Download
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Spantou
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 9:08 pm    Post subject: Enough of Windows [SOLVED]. Reply with quote

Thank you very much everyone. The fact that I have to do the installation myself and watch over the system for ever more is the big draw card. Really learning about Linux the other one. The investment in time very well worth it as against repeated recoveries and file history repairs, with never knowing when the laptop is going to jump to conclusions again. This happened two weeks ago. I was lucky to have done a manual back up just before that. Lost very little. Not going to bother resetting the LT again.

Gentoo not going click, click, finish off the minimal disc is a real relief. Always resented and rejected apps that attempted or did that. Then again, the entire Gentoo approach as seen here and elsewhere, is the other draw card.

Thanks again gentlemen. I will definitely investigate and do as suggested here.
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cwr
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A stage3 is about 250 MB, a portage snapshot about 60 MB, and a kernel package about 80 MB
(all compressed). That, with some tinkering, gets you a shell prompt.

However, you still have to download whatever GUI you plan to use, and Gentoo needs constant
access to the net to download package package updates. My /usr/portage/distfiles directory
contains 5800 packages taking up 8.6 GB; that's accumulated over time, but doesn't include
multiple (updated) versions of a given package.

How much bandwidth Gentoo uses depends on how often you update; as a general rule people
seem to update weekly. If you don't update for six months, then it's easier to rebuild. I don't
update at all, and rebuild my systems annually.

One trick I've found useful is to install Ubuntu LTS (16.04?) before installing Gentoo, although
preventing Ubuntu overwriting stuff takes care and concentration. Once it's installed Ubuntu is
solid, and easy to maintain, and makes it easy to install and (if the worst happens) repair Gentoo.

Since I don't use Ubuntu applications it installs pretty comfortably on a single 8GB partition;
16GB is more than ample. Gentoo takes up a lot more space, partly because I keep a full
set of source around and mostly because all my applications and data are there. My Gentoo
/ directory is 32GB, about half used (/usr/portage is mounted separately).


Good luck - Will
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Spantou
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:59 pm    Post subject: So, over time download sizes are no real issue. Reply with quote

Great! Thanks!! Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

Maybe I'm being overly careful here, but things became clear during the day. Since I decide how to partition and format discs, it's a no-brainer that I can keep the Lenovo D: drive to fall back on until after having found my feet in Gentoo. Check out things as I go and see what goes with the territory. IRC chat is also available on the minimal CD, but I'm going to try and to it as cold turkey as I can.

Luckily I have 1TB internal and 2 of 1TB external hard drives, so I can partition at will and take care of back ups properly. Move, but keep the current data intact. Most of my apps are Linux/Windows capable. I like your idea of not updating too frequently. The LT is 64-bit ready and I will look for that Gentoo version.

This looks better and better all the time. Not to worry. I know there will be crashes, but I have the feeling I will be able to cut that down to a minimum.

Ciao,
Chris.
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Spantou
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:07 pm    Post subject: Interesting wrinkle on UEFI. Reply with quote

Did all the reading, Handbook too. Disabled UEFI Secure Boot, but Windows 8 boots right past the livecd, boots into Gentoo ONLY when Legacy Boot is enabled. CDROM was first in boot order anyway. Checked. Am I missing something here?

UEFI is supposed to be "architecture agnostic", but it seems MS has already high jacked it permanently. Anyway, I need to get a working Gentoo going. For now I will have to go with BIOS. According to the Handbook it seems the Logical partitions are superimposed over the Extended partition. I vaguely recall something to that effect, but all my preparatory records have gone lost. I am referring to Code listing 4 on page 34 of the Handbook.

Could someone please confirm this is correct?

The particulars of partition sizes and so on is not important. I just need the right working method.

Thank you.
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Spantou
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:17 pm    Post subject: Time Zones in Gentoo. Reply with quote

Setting date and time in Gentoo is important. How do I handle my time zone? HB page 41 uses CEST as the time zone. I live in South Africa at GMT+2. Please explain the correct format for this.

Thank you.
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fedeliallalinea
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Time Zones in Gentoo. Reply with quote

Spantou wrote:
Setting date and time in Gentoo is important. How do I handle my time zone? HB page 41 uses CEST as the time zone. I live in South Africa at GMT+2. Please explain the correct format for this.

What is not clear in this part of handbook?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:28 am    Post subject: I stand corrected. Reply with quote

Am changing attitude and approach. Also discovered again some very old stored up mags and other writings.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is potentially a mistake. There are a lot of outdated install guides / YouTube videos out on the internet at large. You should be following the up-to-date Handbook, as referenced by fedeliallalinea and gerard82. If something in that is not clear to you, feel free to ask here.

Of course, if those other writings are for general learning, then that's all for the good. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 6:21 pm    Post subject: A mistake, yes and a rethink. Reply with quote

John is correct; I used the Handbook PDF that came with my LinuxFormat Gentoo 2004.2 cover distro. Fedeliallalinea refers to the AMD64 HB while I am on X86.

However; however; that makes no difference. The admonishment to check date and time BEFORE getting/installing the tarball can be found on John's link to the updated version with exactly the same warning, word for word, here
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Installation/Stage. No mention of time zones.

Time zones are dealt with only under configuring the kernel, namely under chroot. To my understanding that would be way too late for repairs. It also goes directly against the warning as pertains tarballs.

I am not exactly completely illiterate as goes IT and I have learned to mind my P's and Q's where it comes to line coding and dealing with these machines. At the moment I have read as far as this while the Lenovo is even still in Windows. I am very careful in checking myself before asking for help.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your link is incorrect (leads to a largely blank page) so I can't see what you're referring to. Please correct it and I'll take a look.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject: ><)))°€ Reply with quote

Spantou wrote:
John is correct; I used the Handbook PDF that came with my LinuxFormat Gentoo 2004.2 cover distro. Fedeliallalinea refers to the AMD64 HB while I am on X86.

However; however; that makes no difference. The admonishment to check date and time BEFORE getting/installing the tarball can be found on John's link to the updated version with exactly the same warning, word for word, here
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Installation/Stage. No mention of time zones.

Automagical parsing there done chomped the period in with it, which probably wasn't intended. :]

Here's the (I'm guessing) correct link: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:X86/Installation/Stage.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Argh. I probably should've figured that out myself. :oops: Thanks, Chiitoo. Fixed the link above to reduce future confusion.

Spantou, The Gentoo Minimal Install CD already has a default time zone: UTC (aka GMT), which is kind of apparent when you look at the example in the Handbook. Please set the clock to the correct UTC date and time. You can set your local time zone when the Handbook tells you to; no need to worry about it sooner.

- John
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the point doing x86 with 4 GiB of RAM? You should go 64 bit.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:41 pm    Post subject: All depends on what the other guy meant it to be/do. Reply with quote

Thanks for the human reaction John. :D Actually just copy/pasted the link from the address bar. Computers are just very quick idiots, they do what you tell them to do not what you meant them to do, said the instructor to the puzzled coding student.

Buffoon,

As I read it on the Gentoo download page the Multilib is the x86_AMD64 version. 2.26GB, i 686, middle on the right.
Read a free Linux course on Udemy based on Ubuntu, this complained bitterly about the 686 I wanted to install. First did Gentoo, but it did not install because of UEFI (didn’t know, just that is it there). Second try Ubuntu, the laptop crashed into a One Key Recovery, no warning, no control. Oh yes, this was on a VirtualBox emulation. As was habit did manual back ups before that; MS File History and Back ups routinely made a mess. Long story, please do not ask. Win 10 did a forced update and hung for a day. We are just fixing up a few things. . . . . . . . . . Zwing, zwing, zwing. Ctrl-Alt-Del. Back to 8. FR.O.O.O.O.M Scratch.

Adam WilIamson at https://www.happyassassin.net/2014/01/25/uefi-boot-how-does-that-actually-work-then/ has an excellent write up on it. I agree with his Recommendation number 1. UEFI on a GPT disc to save anguish. All I need anyway.

Multilib ISO boots into Gentoo only if Legacy Boot is active, not with Secure Boot Disabled.

fdisk -l says I have a GPT disc. Why will it not boot? Looks like I will have to reformat completely, but as Adam says the UEFI firmware remains on the motherboard. The disc’s EFI System is just something of a “boot menu” of different OS’s. What is the situation in terms of getting locked out?

Also, I last looked at Linux on a MBR BIOS XP.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen, I am getting somewhere and quite soon.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AMD64 is for 64-bit Intel architecture. i686 is for 32-bit Intel arch. Use some universal CD as SystemRescueCD to boot, it will also give you GUI, just open a terminal window and copy and paste commands from Gentoo Handbook.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffoon wrote:
What's the point doing x86 with 4 GiB of RAM? You should go 64 bit.
There are some legitimate reasons. For instance, on one of my main Linux development boxes I develop and test code for embedded systems that are all 32-bit. Some of my code runs on Linux-based workstations on the factory floor and also on the Linux-based 32-bit embedded systems being produced at the factory. Having the same word size across all platforms means that the code is more robustly compatible (e.g., same exact overflow / underflow behavior).

Now that said, I don't think this particular reason applies to Spantou. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go buy another internal drive, pull the existing one and put it on a shelf. If/when you sell your laptop you can reinstall Windows without any problems. Best of all, you'll undoubtedly get a bigger, faster drive than the one you had originally.

I recommend booting from the system rescue cd and then installing a 64-bit system. Personally I'm for UEFI boot but that's up to you.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:39 pm    Post subject: Thanks,both. Reply with quote

Buffoon,

I understand why you ask, it's just that I have this set up right now and am not too clued up on everything. I will just have to educate myself on everything as I go. I just need to get a working environment going as I want to start a new venture as a web developer. It will come. I am set on going Linux, Gentoo specifically. Will look into it.

John,
Yes, there are different perspectives and needs as dictated say by your work environment for instance. But you are right, 32/64 is immaterial to me right now. The ultimate aim is to get under the hood proper. Fed up with being told what not to do and then getting gunge for the effort.

Thanks gents, things are proceeding apace.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
Buffoon wrote:
What's the point doing x86 with 4 GiB of RAM? You should go 64 bit.
There are some legitimate reasons. For instance, on one of my main Linux development boxes I develop and test code for embedded systems that are all 32-bit. Some of my code runs on Linux-based workstations on the factory floor and also on the Linux-based 32-bit embedded systems being produced at the factory. Having the same word size across all platforms means that the code is more robustly compatible (e.g., same exact overflow / underflow behavior).

Now that said, I don't think this particular reason applies to Spantou. ;)

- John


Linus about PAE. 8O

Quote:
So no, PAE does not mean that you can use more than 4GB of RAM. Even before PAE, the practical limit was around 1GB, and PAE didn’t move that post a fraction of an inch!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 3:13 pm    Post subject: Found the answer, I think. Reply with quote

1clue,

I somehow missed your post, but I agree completely. Even researched buying a dinkum Linux rig. Even a hard disc is no option right now. Had two options. Leave the EFI System partition as recommended on this site;

- http://superuser.com/questions/764799/how-to-create-an-efi-system-partition -

or format the disc as in the Gentoo Handbook, but would then need the Linux System ID. Tripped over the same site and there it was! EFI System Partition = 1.

Under Legacy SysRescueCD boots to the first ISOLINUX 3.85 line and hangs. Super GRUB2 boots fully, so I should be able to partition the disc and install file systems, get things going. Just keep my eyes open.

Thank you.
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