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deltamalloc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Automatically set all required use flags with no prompt Reply with quote

Is there any way to configure a typical Gentoo system such that portage will set whatever use flags it needs to do the job?

I'm not talking about --autounmask. I want to just be able to do emerge [ebuild] and have the program make all the required changes it needs in the package.* files on the fly, then seamlessly continue with the emerge, no prompt.
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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does not work.

These are dependencies. They depend on each other.

I doubt your gentoo box can guess what you want or what you do not want.

--

Gentoo offery you profiles

for example:
a desctop profile has preset dependencies for a desctop
a server profile has other things set as a desctop profile

but you can overrule these settings, except teh 64bit / 32bit profile, anythign else can easily usually be overwritten. talking in a sligth newbie view. there are a few exception, ...

--

Personally I think you wuold be more suited for those binary distros as linux - mint.

gives you a preset expierence wihtout much costomizations. Update is with much less user intervention

Gentoo is more for guys who want to have control over their box, and want to reduce bloat.

for example:

many guys use ms windows, which forces you up with a preset webbrowser which can not be cahnged, a preinstalled media player whch can not be ripped out and such.

gentoo is just basic building blocks, you need to set them there for anything you want. none tells you what to use, wahts better, and what you have ot use. => e.g. ms edge browser can not be ripped out; you need a powershell for certain tasks and such ...

--

Most ebuilds will install anyway with the use-flag sets in your selected profile and your already selected use-flags.

you can use ufed to get a gui to set those use-flags.
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deltamalloc
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roman_Gruber wrote:
Does not work.

These are dependencies. They depend on each other.

I doubt your gentoo box can guess what you want or what you do not want.

--

Gentoo offery you profiles

for example:
a desctop profile has preset dependencies for a desctop
a server profile has other things set as a desctop profile

but you can overrule these settings, except teh 64bit / 32bit profile, anythign else can easily usually be overwritten. talking in a sligth newbie view. there are a few exception, ...

--

Personally I think you wuold be more suited for those binary distros as linux - mint.

gives you a preset expierence wihtout much costomizations. Update is with much less user intervention

Gentoo is more for guys who want to have control over their box, and want to reduce bloat.

for example:

many guys use ms windows, which forces you up with a preset webbrowser which can not be cahnged, a preinstalled media player whch can not be ripped out and such.

gentoo is just basic building blocks, you need to set them there for anything you want. none tells you what to use, wahts better, and what you have ot use. => e.g. ms edge browser can not be ripped out; you need a powershell for certain tasks and such ...

--

Most ebuilds will install anyway with the use-flag sets in your selected profile and your already selected use-flags.

you can use ufed to get a gui to set those use-flags.


This is not what I mean, if I want to install ebuild X, if this ebuild requires ~amd64 on the following other ebuilds and some USE flag, then, what choice do I have?

Why should I manually type any command to make this happen? I can understand that some people prefer to run a strictly stable system, and some don't want to enable whatever use flag it requires. But what if I do? Surely I'm not the only one that would benefit from having an argument to emerge that just tells it to "deal with it I need X installed, and I don't care what the price is".
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krinn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

packageA : with -X install packgeY
packageA: with X install packageZ

And user have install packageA, with USE="-X"

Now user try to install packageB, and portage says <packageA need to be USE="X">
if portage set USE="X" itself, you'll endup with packageB, packageA and packageZ

Is it what user want?

It depends on user:
If really user wants packageB, he might accept to use packageZ to get packageB
But, some user will never accept the lost of packageY, and will prefer not using packageB.

And it will goes upto death ; because now that portage has install packageB and packageZ, packageK is also complaining that it cannot run without packageY...
And in this case, some user that first pickup the choice "ok i accept the lost of packageY to get packageB" rechange their minds because of the other lost (packageK and co).

Alas like roman_gruber said, if you want less choice, binary distro do that better, you'll get X with packageA and packageY because one of their dev like packageY better.
The problem will comes when you will want packageZ instead of packageY and the dev has built everything against packageY. You'll then do again a choice: back to gentoo and make the choice to use packageZ or rebuild all packages from the binary distro that were built using packageY ; and you'll see, that without the help of portage, that's a huge task.
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deltamalloc
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
packageA : with -X install packgeY
packageA: with X install packageZ

And user have install packageA, with USE="-X"

Now user try to install packageB, and portage says <packageA need to be USE="X">
if portage set USE="X" itself, you'll endup with packageB, packageA and packageZ

Is it what user want?

It depends on user:
If really user wants packageB, he might accept to use packageZ to get packageB
But, some user will never accept the lost of packageY, and will prefer not using packageB.

And it will goes upto death ; because now that portage has install packageB and packageZ, packageK is also complaining that it cannot run without packageY...
And in this case, some user that first pickup the choice "ok i accept the lost of packageY to get packageB" rechange their minds because of the other lost (packageK and co).

Alas like roman_gruber said, if you want less choice, binary distro do that better, you'll get X with packageA and packageY because one of their dev like packageY better.
The problem will comes when you will want packageZ instead of packageY and the dev has built everything against packageY. You'll then do again a choice: back to gentoo and make the choice to use packageZ or rebuild all packages from the binary distro that were built using packageY ; and you'll see, that without the help of portage, that's a huge task.


I'm not talking about conflicting packages or stuff that will remove things I might need.

What I mean is this:

I want to emerge radare2, so I type emerge radare2.

Code:

# emerge radare2
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    ~] dev-util/radare2-1.1.0  USE="ssl"

The following keyword changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.accept_keywords" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by radare2 (argument)
=dev-util/radare2-1.1.0 ~amd64

Use --autounmask-write to write changes to config files (honoring
CONFIG_PROTECT). Carefully examine the list of proposed changes,
paying special attention to mask or keyword changes that may expose
experimental or unstable packages.


Fine, just do it. Why do you ask me, the user to do this? Why not at least just ask the user "should I add this stuff to the file for you, right now?". Yeah I could use --autounmask-write, then dispatch-conf, so a total of three commands, just to make one command complete.

I don't want less flexibility with Gentoo, I like Gentoo and I'm happy with it. But it would be nice, when needed, to have some simple way of doing emerge --careless [package].
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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are better of with a binary distro.

Gentoo is a do it yourself box.

When you want to have less time spend maintaining, you should use windows, linux mint, redheat, suse, ...

these operating systems, do not offer you choices, just tell you you need that and thats it.

Gentoo in my experience over many years, is a lot about making decissions, finding bugs, creating config files and such.

I also want to reduce my time spend on maintaining my box. Sadly there is no real alternative to my existing box. Windows 10 is the most stupidiest OS i ever saw, mint is not to my liking. Debian is too complicated, the docs from debian are not that well maintained, well created! Arch linux is also a lot of time to invest.

--

When you want a fast installtion with fuss later, use windows 10, linux mint

when you want less fuss later, use gentoo. (my choice)

--

Quote:
I want to emerge radare2, so I type emerge radare2.


just run ~amd64. it has less fuss than stable, and when your box is newer as 2 years, I recommend ~amd64 anyway.
when you need a recent browser, recent kernel, recent gpu driver, than you are a candidate for ~amd64.

Note: this is my opinion!
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deltamalloc
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roman_Gruber wrote:
I think you are better of with a binary distro.

Gentoo is a do it yourself box.

When you want to have less time spend maintaining, you should use windows, linux mint, redheat, suse, ...

these operating systems, do not offer you choices, just tell you you need that and thats it.

Gentoo in my experience over many years, is a lot about making decissions, finding bugs, creating config files and such.

I also want to reduce my time spend on maintaining my box. Sadly there is no real alternative to my existing box. Windows 10 is the most stupidiest OS i ever saw, mint is not to my liking. Debian is too complicated, the docs from debian are not that well maintained, well created! Arch linux is also a lot of time to invest.

--

When you want a fast installtion with fuss later, use windows 10, linux mint

when you want less fuss later, use gentoo. (my choice)

--

Quote:
I want to emerge radare2, so I type emerge radare2.


just run ~amd64. it has less fuss than stable, and when your box is newer as 2 years, I recommend ~amd64 anyway.
when you need a recent browser, recent kernel, recent gpu driver, than you are a candidate for ~amd64.

Note: this is my opinion!


This is way off topic for the thread, and I think you're only trying to be helpful. But I've happily used Gentoo for many years. I encounter issues now and then and just deal with them. Sometimes I learn something, sometimes it is just a hassle. I don't want a binary distro.

But I fail to see why I'm being recommended a binary distro just because I'm asking one "user friendly" question. There is no reason why a user friendly argument like that cannot coexist with the rest of the system as it is -- all I'm asking for is merely an argument to automate the process of updating some files. It would be a quite trivial addition to implement.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deltamalloc,

You appear to be running a mostly arch system but want a smattering of ~arch.

Eventually you will get into the state where some stable package (A) wants one version of a dependency and an unstable package (B) needs a different version of the same dependency.
Portage cannot resolve that. There may not be a solution other than for you to choose between A and B.
If you can't manage getting into that situation, its only a matter of time, you can't manage getting out of it either.

Portage has the --auto-unmask option if you really really want to shut your eyes and hope for the best.

For a small number of carefully managed packages, mixing arch and ~arch can be made to work. If you don't care what portage does, move to an all ~arch system and manage the breakage.
It will be less effort long term.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deltamalloc wrote:
I want to emerge radare2, so I type emerge radare2.

Code:
# emerge radare2
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild  N    ~] dev-util/radare2-1.1.0  USE="ssl"

The following keyword changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.accept_keywords" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by radare2 (argument)
=dev-util/radare2-1.1.0 ~amd64

Use --autounmask-write to write changes to config files (honoring
CONFIG_PROTECT). Carefully examine the list of proposed changes,
paying special attention to mask or keyword changes that may expose
experimental or unstable packages.

Fine, just do it. Why do you ask me, the user to do this? Why not at least just ask the user "should I add this stuff to the file for you, right now?". Yeah I could use --autounmask-write, then dispatch-conf, so a total of three commands, just to make one command complete. I don't want less flexibility with Gentoo, I like Gentoo and I'm happy with it. But it would be nice, when needed, to have some simple way of doing emerge --careless [package].

deltamalloc wrote:
But I fail to see why I'm being recommended a binary distro just because I'm asking one "user friendly" question. There is no reason why a user friendly argument like that cannot coexist with the rest of the system as it is -- all I'm asking for is merely an argument to automate the process of updating some files. It would be a quite trivial addition to implement.

deltamalloc ... look at it this way: you want a "user friendly" feature to allow the user (who if prompted will no doubt select 'yes' without understanding what they are doing) to move from arch/stable to ~arch/unstable. The problem with this is that ~arch shouldn't be placed one 'yes' away from the unwary, it requires you know what you are doing, and can fix all the issues that may come as a result, and so is not "user friendly". It is already too easy for inexperienced users to fall into this trap (simply based on what portage tells them is "required") and you needn't look too far to see posts where this combination of ~arch and inexperience leads.

best ... khay
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krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

going from arch to ~arch could be really harmful, specially for a user with lack of knowledge.
think about glibc, user is pushed to ~glibc because of that portage feature and user then want to get back (of course he will want, everything depend on glibc, he will have no choice to be all ~ or get back) ; and getting back from a ~glibc is sure way to break the system, and not for fun, but badly.
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn,

The reality is that there is no going back from ~arch.
The best you can do is to mask all the ~arch versions where they are and wait for arch to catch up, which can take a very long time.

A glibc downgrade can be be done. Its a wonderful educational experience, rather like holding a tiger by the tail,
you learn things you can learn no other way.
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