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Roman_Gruber
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: f2fs for / - mature enough? Reply with quote

Aquous wrote:
Hi guys,Last I checked, f2fs was still quite experimental, but I don't know what its current state is. A quick Google search indicates that there appears to be a working fsck tool now, and I know that various phone manufacturers are beginning to use it (although in Android ROMs / is always read-only, so there's basically no risk for them). What do you guys think - is anybody using f2fs for /, and how is it working for you?


Most Fs are experimental.

Quote:
lthough in Android ROMs / is always read-only


How comes?

Why should they be read-only on a phone or tablet?

There are always writes.

--

I have a quite old google developer phone.
I use f2fs for quite a while with a custom bootloader

f2fs has benefits for phones.

On a desctop I suggest you tweak ext4.

Quote:
anybody using f2fs for /


I use it on my two developer phones and tablet.

Quote:
so there's basically no risk for them)


why is there no risk?

A phone has to work with the desired functionality in an emergency for example
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1062564-highlight-.html
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1062564-highlight-.html
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R0b0t1
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khayyam wrote:
R0b0t1 wrote:
It is mature enough for me to consider using it on a rather important, but not my only, system. However if you look there are some changes you can make to your ext4 filesystems that make them more compatible with SSDs, though not exactly like f2fs. Eventually it seems like all important work in f2fs may get added into ext4.

R0b0t1 ... you have any links to that discussion? I was thinking of f2fs for an old dell netbook (with an 8GB SSD) just for the hell of it, but I've been holding off due to lack of time. How soon might "eventually" be?

TIA & best ... khay


Sorry khay, I realize it is something I should provide a citation for but I can't remember much about the discussion where I found it. "Eventually" in this case would be multiple years.
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Hu
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: f2fs for / - mature enough? Reply with quote

Roman_Gruber wrote:
Most Fs are experimental.
You have an odd definition of experimental. What do you consider non-experimental in the filesystem realm?
Roman_Gruber wrote:
Quote:
lthough in Android ROMs / is always read-only


How comes?

Why should they be read-only on a phone or tablet?

There are always writes.
On most mobiles, / is used only for content from the vendor, so there is no need to write to it except on those extremely rare occasions the vendor can be bothered to provide (usually quite belated) software updates. The rest of the time, / has no need to change, so it could be read-only without impacting the functionality. In my opinion, if there is no functionality loss from making a mount read-only, then it ought to be made read-only.

As an aside, on a real ROM, in the original definition of the word, / would of course be read-only because it was stored in Read Only Memory ("ROM"). Attempts to write to it would fail because the memory literally could not be modified. I recognize that popular usage has thoroughly perverted this definition, though, so people frequently use ROM to refer to things other than actual hardware-enforced read-only memory.
Roman_Gruber wrote:
Quote:
so there's basically no risk for them)


why is there no risk?

A phone has to work with the desired functionality in an emergency for example
Most risk from filesystems would come from buggy code modifying the filesystem in a way that produces bad results (whether corruption, privilege elevation, information disclosure through mangled ACLs, etc.). If the filesystem is mounted read-only, or stored on a block device that enforces immutability, then many, though not all, classes of problems become impossible.
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n05ph3r42
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PostPosted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: f2fs for / - mature enough? Reply with quote

Aquous wrote:
Hi guys,

Random thought that crossed my mind: my / is on an SSD, so it would probably benefit from being formatted as f2fs, rather than ext4. Last I checked, f2fs was still quite experimental, but I don't know what its current state is. A quick Google search indicates that there appears to be a working fsck tool now, and I know that various phone manufacturers are beginning to use it (although in Android ROMs / is always read-only, so there's basically no risk for them). What do you guys think - is anybody using f2fs for /, and how is it working for you?


Hi,
I use F2FS for / more than a year on my notebook, works like a charm. SSD is Samsung 840 Pro.
Fsck run on boot since 4.10.x kernel update (or after certificates update, im not sure), because of uncommon characters in turkish certificates filenames (seems like crc cannot calculate right checksum for them).
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mirekm
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PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also use f2fs as root filesystem since over 1 year.
It works very well, and I didn't got any problems with that.
Additionally I make this filesystem as RO. There are only several files that system want to update during runtime (like mtab, and resolv.conf).
and I made mtab softlink to /proc/mounts.
and resolv.conf an softlink to /run/resolv.conf (which I create during startup).
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: f2fs for / - mature enough? Reply with quote

Aquous wrote:
Hi guys,

Random thought that crossed my mind: my / is on an SSD, so it would probably benefit from being formatted as f2fs, rather than ext4. Last I checked, f2fs was still quite experimental, but I don't know what its current state is. A quick Google search indicates that there appears to be a working fsck tool now, and I know that various phone manufacturers are beginning to use it (although in Android ROMs / is always read-only, so there's basically no risk for them). What do you guys think - is anybody using f2fs for /, and how is it working for you?
Merged to consolidate for future searchers.

Goverp wrote:
I've formatted the SD card for one of my Raspberry Pi's (an old model B) for f2fs. Did I do wrong, and should I stick to ext4 (with appropriate tune2fs settings)? I know when it was new f2fs users reported issues, but that's to be expected; has it improved?
Merged to consolidate with a newer thread (this post). Result is that posts title becoming the new thread title.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to bump this... Pushing again filesystems are meant to be boring...

CVE-2017-10663 is over a missing buffer boundary check.
CVE-2017-10662 is regards to a possible integer overflow.
CVE-2017-0750 is another missing boundary check.
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eccerr0r
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly it doesn't matter, as long as the underlying wear leveling and flash media is actually "good".

Bad/crappy flash media and bad wear leveling, like in most cheap SD cards, you're dead or going to die either way whether you use f2fs or ext4fs or xfs. BACKUP.

I would imagine f2fs is good for raw NAND flash, though I think most phones use emmc which is a "cooked" interface (meaning, embedded wear leveling) and thus should be fs agnostic.

So far I have one 16GB "full" xfce Gentoo install on a flash USB stick and so far so good. It's using ext3fs. Most of my SD cards that I try to do the same thing has failed by now.

Note that most SD / USB cards don't pass TRIM commands and ext4fs probably don't do much for these... but again if it has good wear leveling then it's not entirely necessary, just a speed bump.
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