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Xywa
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:12 am    Post subject: Windows 10 & Gentoo on 2018 Reply with quote

Hi,

After 10 years or more of not using Windows (last one was Vista), I need a new laptop with a Windows (for PremierePro), as kdenlive is not enough for my work.

My question is, how is a best way (in 2018) to install / use both Windows 10 / Gentooo (dual boot)? I will have probably one big partition with Windows 10 after buying, or maybe is possible to ask before the buy to have a system with few partitions. Or maybe (based on your experience), do you think I should manually format the whole disc (as I used to do in 2008) t, made all partitions under Gentoo starter disc first. Then install both systems. What are your toughs in this area?

I want use Windows just for PremierePro and maybe Gaming, and Gentoo for rest of work. It is possible to make Gentoo data on Gentoo partions safe from Windows - eg. if I have some viruses or malicious software, which could read or even encrypt partition like "Your personal files are encrypted” ransomware". I would like to have my Gentoo partition unvisable for Windows and all their spy agenda.

Unfortunately, is not possible to have a Windows on external disc, so I could plug in, run Windows, then plug off after the work - so I need to have bot on the same hard-drive in laptop.

Thank you for any answers and links.
P.S. I have no idea what is uefi (I use system with old fashion BIOS), so this also a reason I am asking.
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Marcih
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xywa wrote:
My question is, how is a best way (in 2018) to install / use both Windows 10 / Gentooo (dual boot)? I will have probably one big partition with Windows 10 after buying, or maybe is possible to ask before the buy to have a system with few partitions. Or maybe (based on your experience), do you think I should manually format the whole disc (as I used to do in 2008) t, made all partitions under Gentoo starter disc first. Then install both systems. What are your toughs in this area?

While I've never tried this, I heard that Windows doesn't play nice with existing GRUB installations. Your best bet would be to do a clean Windows install, size the partitions as you see fit (read: don't let Windows gobble up all disk space, obviously :)), boot into a LiveCD, do the Gentoo install according to the handbook, deleting Windows' boot partition, making your own manually instead and installing GRUB on it (grub-mkconfig can detect Windows installs as well as GNU/Linux ones methinks).
Xywa wrote:
t is possible to make Gentoo data on Gentoo partions safe from Windows - eg. if I have some viruses or malicious software, which could read or even encrypt partition like "Your personal files are encrypted” ransomware". I would like to have my Gentoo partition unvisable for Windows and all their spy agenda.

Formatting your Gentoo partitions with ext4 or anyting not named NTFS or FAT (why would you want to, anyway? ;)) should have you covered. Last time I checked, Windows didn't have any support for ext FS, it pretended like the partition is unformatted. I don't know whether that'll have you safe from ransomware but I imagine it will: If it's running in the Windows environment, it can't read the Gentoo partitons, hence can't encrypt the files (unless the malware "carries" its own FS tools with it, is that even possible? :lol:).
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a Laptop with Windows 10 and Gentoo on it.

My method for installation was this:
  1. Switch to UEFI boot
  2. Enable Legacy Boot mode (Windows can't boot otherwise)
  3. Install Windows (7 back then), but configure the partitions by hand:
    (Note: I have a 1TB HD and enabled GPT)
    • C: 60GB System
    • D: 40GB Data (shared with Gentoo)
    • P: 100GB Programs
  4. After Windows was installed, I used the Gentoo based System Rescue CD to install Gentoo on the remaining disk space.
    (I have a rather crazy HD layout including VeraCrypt-Containers that are bound together using ZFS-RAID, so my configuration isn't something I'd recommend.)
  5. My Laptop is a Dell Precision, which has a rather good UEFI Boot Editor, so I used that to add loading of the grub.efi as the first and default option.


My Laptop loads Grub by default, with which I can choose kernel versions. If I want to Boot Windows, I have to hit F12 on startup to bring up the BIOS boot menu, where I can select Windows.
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is far easier now than it has ever been. Star with windows, factory install is fine. Use windows to shrink itself to make room for Gentoo. Install Gentoo on the free space. You will have to use a GPT partition scheme with a UEFI boot scheme.

For the boot loader you have several choices. You can use grub2, which is the most painful and the option I would avoid. You can use rEFInd which just works. Or you can edit the bootloader on the laptop to do it for you. I like this option best. The kernels can set right next to the window kernel so no need to create /boot partitions

And of course, turn off secure boot then turn it off again.
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tuggbuss
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't EFI stub be simpler on the Gentoo side? No need for a boot loader.
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Xywa
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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for such quick answer :)

Do you think is possible in grub starter to make a password for Windows partition, so wont be possible to start Windows without a password?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tuggbuss wrote:
Wouldn't EFI stub be simpler on the Gentoo side? No need for a boot loader.
EFI stub lets the firmware boot Linux directly. In a dual boot environment, if the firmware does not make it easy to pick Windows vs Linux (and most make it hard), then a boot loader will be necessary to provide the chooser prompt. Once a boot loader is used for that purpose, EFI stub is no longer relevant.
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elnll002
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my case, I have windows 10 in a whole separated disk and I dont have any problem..
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Windows 10 & Gentoo on 2018 Reply with quote

Xywa wrote:
My question is, how is a best way (in 2018) to install / use both Windows 10 / Gentooo (dual boot)? I will have probably one big partition with Windows 10 after buying, or maybe is possible to ask before the buy to have a system with few partitions. Or maybe (based on your experience), do you think I should manually format the whole disc (as I used to do in 2008) t, made all partitions under Gentoo starter disc first. Then install both systems. What are your toughs in this area?

I want use Windows just for PremierePro and maybe Gaming, and Gentoo for rest of work. It is possible to make Gentoo data on Gentoo partions safe from Windows - eg. if I have some viruses or malicious software, which could read or even encrypt partition like "Your personal files are encrypted” ransomware". I would like to have my Gentoo partition unvisable for Windows and all their spy agenda.

Unfortunately, is not possible to have a Windows on external disc, so I could plug in, run Windows, then plug off after the work - so I need to have bot on the same hard-drive in laptop.

Thank you for any answers and links.
P.S. I have no idea what is uefi (I use system with old fashion BIOS), so this also a reason I am asking.


I have not tried with Windows 10, I have dual boot with Windows 8.1. (factory installed Windows 8.1) I rarely boot Windows - only connect to the net via wired ethernet for updates, so Windows does not have Wifi passwords. I have secure boot enabled and have my own keys installed. Deleting the Windows boot partition is a bad idea.

The system came with Windows installed and UEFI mode. I think I used a systemrescue CD to do the install, on some I have used the Gentoo live DVD.
My desktop PC is able to run Windows 10 in Virtualbox but my laptop does not have enough grunt to run Windows 10 in a vm. I have no intention of buying a copy of Windows, but if I wanted to run it I would try a download and install without activation as a bare metal install and in a vm and see if I can get all I need in a vm. That way your data should be safe even if Windows does something stupid or is compromised in a vm - I still would not mount a partition with sensitive data while running the vm ;)

Windows is not encrypted - but does not really have access to any sensitive data. Laptop bios is set requiring password entry to boot and the Linux partitions are encrypted using luks. I used a variation of information here to set the system up ...

Ed: I have grub2 installed but use efibootmgr to have the default boot option boot the kernel (with initramfs to unlock luks partition), press F12 at boot and use the bios option to select Windows on the odd occasion I actually use it.
Ed2: If you use grub2 to boot then you only need to install and sign the grub binary, it can boot an unsigned Linux kernel. You can go without grub but you need to sign each kernel.
I use a manually configured kernel, started off using genkernel to create an initramfs but later used information from here to create my own for embedding in the kernel ... but there are other options for an initramfs if needed
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Xywa
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Doctor wrote:
You can use rEFInd which just works. Or you can edit the bootloader on the laptop to do it for you. I like this option best. The kernels can set right next to the window kernel so no need to create /boot partitions


I will do what you say. There is no other option from producer, only Windows 10. I will spilt it into second partition, install Gentoo and will try to learn about this rEFInd. Is there any good manual? Or maybe it will be faster to quick install eg. Ubuntu or Mandriva, and then add an extra partition for Gentoo and add it to the Ubuntu bootloader?

Could you explain about this no need /boot partitions, please. I am from old fashion times. Since 2003 I usually have separate partitions for /boot, /var, /tmp, /home as it was told for security reasons. Do you have any suggestion for current times?
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The Doctor
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can google rEFInd and get all the documentation you will ever need, including how to install it from windows which is prefered.

As for partitions, the /boot is the only one that has any reason to change. UEFI reads a FAT partition and attempts to load the predifined kernel, usually /efi/BOOT/BOOTX64.EFI. For simplicity on my gentoo only machine this is what my kernel is named, but it is easy to edit with the proper tools available in the portage tree. With windows, your kernel can live next to the windows kernel on this FAT partition. The reason to do this is that UEFI only reads the FAT partition so any kernels on an ext* would be invisible to it. And since this partition must exist anyway why not just put the kernel in it.

The way rEFInd works is that you edit the boot preference to boot it with the highest priority. Then it scans all the partitions and assembles a list of bootable kernels. Once you have made your selection it will boot that kernel. Practically nothing for you to configure or do. The only catch is your linux kernels need their command line built in.

Other than the early boot process there is no difference between this and an older install so you can do as you please there.
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Cuong Nguyen
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my experience for Dual or Multiboot Windows 10 and unlimited linux distros.

A. Semi-automatic installl
Switch to UEFI mode.
Install Windows 10 to blank HDD (no partitions) by using USB created with rufus from Windows ISO to GPT UEFI mode. This step is to make sure your disk is GPT partitioned during default install.
Resize Windows partition to 50%
Create partition (usually /dev/sda5 of 2G-4G for /boot, the size depends on how many linux distros you will install.
Create 1 partition for the rest of the disk as LVM and create root and swap volume group

B. Manual install
Use system rescure cd to boot
use gdisk /dev/sda and partition your hard disk as follows
sda1 = 499MB type 2700 --> Windows RE
sda2 = 200MB to 511MB type EF00 --> EFI. Microsoft requires 100MB for EFI but I personally prefer 511MB which is enough space for storing EFI RAM DISK full boot image (around 200MB) if I want to full-encryption hard disk with luks, lvm.
sda3 = 16MB type 0C01 Microsoft Reserved. This partition for Microsoft to move data for resizing partition by Microsoft. I dont know how exactly will Windows use this partition, but default installation of Windows creates this partition. For Windows Server system this partition upto 127MB
sda4 = 50% of your hard disk or 60GB at least for Windows 10 C: system drive (type 0700)
sda5 = 2GB - to 4GB type 8300 whill be formatted as ext2 or ext4 for /boot partition, vmlinuz and initram will reside there, so if you plan to boot up to 4-5 different Linux Distro allocate 4GB each linux distro consume about 200-250MB space for vmlinuz and initramfs files.
sda6 = the rest of your hard disk or 32GB as minimum for a linux desktop distro. type 8E00 I use LVM gentoo-vg. On this LVM I will create root and swap LVs.
continue with sda7, sda8... as LVM for each linux distro if you will use more than 1 linux distro.

I dont use GRUB boot manager but opted rEFInd boot manager, which I found easier to create multi os booting confiuration stanzas.

Here is my 250GB HDD to boot Windows and 6 different Linux distros:
Code:

Number  Start (sector)    End (sector)  Size       Code  Name
   1            2048         1023999   499.0 MiB   2700  Windows RE
   2         1024000         2070527   511.0 MiB   EF00  EFI System
   3         2070528         2103295   16.0 MiB    0C01  Microsoft reserved
   4         2103296       127932415   60.0 GiB    0700  Microsoft Windows v...
   5       127932416       136321023   4.0 GiB     8300  Linux filesystem
   6       136321024       199235583   30.0 GiB    8E00  Gentoo LVM
   7       199235584       262150143   30.0 GiB    8E00  Calculate LVM
   8       262150144       325064703   30.0 GiB    8E00  Redcore LVM
   9       325064704       387979263   30.0 GiB    8E00  Arch LVM
  10       387979264       450893823   30.0 GiB    8E00  Artix LVM
  11       450893824       513808383   30.0 GiB    8E00  Pentoo LVM
  12       513808384       534773726   10.0 GiB    8200  Linux swap
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Cuong Nguyen : That looks great!

Unfortunately I can't have that many, my EFI only allows three boot entries. :-( rEFInd lists 6, but three are reserved.
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Cuong Nguyen
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:

Unfortunately I can't have that many, my EFI only allows three boot entries. :-( rEFInd lists 6, but three are reserved.

EFI BIOS doesn't load boot kernel and initram disk directly from the HDD. We need only 1 EFI Boot entry to load rEFInd boot manager. All distros boot kernel and initram disks will be configured in refind.conf for rEFInd Boot Manager to load on your select or you can even chainload GRUB boot manager with rEFInd.
The reason I need a separate /dev/sda5 formatted as ext2 or ext4 to store vmlinuz and initramfs files because rEFInd Boot Manager cannot read file from LVM LVs (as GRUB can do).
The boot squence as follows:
    UEFI BIOS read .EFI executables from FAT32 partition (/dev/sda2) UEFI BIOS can read FAT and FAT only.

    UEFI BIOS passes control to .EFI excutable. It can be another Boot Manager, either rEFInd, GRUB or Windows Boot Manager.

    if rEFInd Boot Manager loaded, it will read refind.conf file to read Linux Kernel, other EFI executables (like GRUB or Windows Boot Manager) from other non-LVM partitions formatted as a file system that rEFInd can read (ext2, ext3, ext4, ntfs, btrfs, xfs, ufs, zfs). rEFInd can load many EFI file drivers inherited from GRUB. Please read rEFInd home page for information.


Here is excerpts from my refind.conf
Code:

menuentry "Windows Server vNext" {
    icon \EFI\refind\myicons\os_winnext.png
    loader \EFI\Microsoft\Boot\bootmgfw.efi
}

menuentry "Calculate GNU/Linux LXQt" {
        icon \EFI\Boot\myicons\os_calculate.png
    volume <partuuid>
    loader vmlinuz-4.16.14-calculate
    initrd initramfs-4.16.14-calculate.img
        options "rw root=/dev/calculate-vg/root rootfstype=xfs rootflags=noatime resume=UUID=<swap_uuid> rd.lvm.lv=calculate-vg/root rd.auto rd.retry=40 splash=silent,theme:calculate quiet"
        submenuentry "4.14.39-calculate" {
        loader vmlinuz-4.14.39-calculate
            initrd initramfs-4.14.39-calculate.img
    }
}

menuentry "Redcore GNU/Linux LXQt" {
        icon \EFI\Boot\myicons\os_redcore.png
    volume <partuuid>
        loader vmlinuz-4.14.44-redcore-lts
        initrd initrd-4.14.44-redcore-lts
        options "root=/dev/redcore-vg/root rootfstype=xfs rootflags=noatime resume=UUID=<swap_uuid> rd.lvm.lv =redcore-vg/root rd.auto rd.retry=40 splash quiet"
    submenuentry "Boot with 4.14.30 kernel" {
        loader vmlinuz-4.14.30-redcore-lts
        initrd initrd-4.14.30-redcore-lts
    }
}

menuentry "Arch GNU/Linux" {
    icon \EFI\Boot\icons\os_arch.png
    volume <partuuid>
    loader vmlinuz-linux-arch
    initrd initramfs-linux-arch.img
    options "rw root=/dev/arch-vg/root rootfstype=xfs rootflags=noatime resume=UUID=<swap_uuid> add_efi_memmap"
    submenuentry "Boot using fallback initramfs" {
        initrd  initramfs-linux-arch-fallback.img
    }
    submenuentry "Boot to terminal" {
        add_options "systemd.unit=multi-user.target"
    }
}

menuentry "Artix Arch-openRC GNU/Linux" {
    icon \EFI\Boot\myicons\os_artix.png
    volume <partuuid>
    loader vmlinuz-linux-artix
    initrd initramfs-linux-artix.img
    options "rw root=/dev/artix-vg/root init=/usr/bin/openrc-init rootfstype=xfs rootflags=noatime resume=UUID=<swap_uuid> add_efi_memmap"
    submenuentry "Boot using fallback initramfs" {
        initrd  initramfs-linux-artix-fallback.img
    }
    submenuentry "Boot to terminal" {
        add_options "systemd.unit=multi-user.target"
    }
}
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would NOT dual boot.

Dual boot means you can never access all of your installed functionality at the same time.

I would take the OS you use most (Gentoo, from the sounds of it) and put that on the bare metal. Then install a virtualization server like KVM or VMware or VirtualBox, as appropriate, and install Windows on that.

From the sounds of it you don't have a bare-metal license for Windows 10 anyway, and IMO the only rational way to use Windows is to throw the pre-installed image in the trash and install from a clean iso from Microsoft. That's the only way it will work in a VM anyway, so go buy a license key off an authorized reseller site.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cuong Nguyen wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:

Unfortunately I can't have that many, my EFI only allows three boot entries. :-( rEFInd lists 6, but three are reserved.

EFI BIOS doesn't load boot kernel and initram disk directly from the HDD. We need only 1 EFI Boot entry to load rEFInd boot manager. All distros boot kernel and initram disks will be configured in refind.conf for rEFInd Boot Manager to load on your select or you can even chainload GRUB boot manager with rEFInd.
Sorry, my fault! I confused rEFInd with efibootmgr. :roll: Stupid me...

At least I now know (by accident, because I bricked my system) why I only could have three boot entries: /sys/fs/efi/efivars filled up with dump-* files. So trying to add a new boot entry ended up with an "inappropriate IOCTL" error, which was a very weird way of saying "no space left on device". :lol:

1clue wrote:
I would NOT dual boot.

Dual boot means you can never access all of your installed functionality at the same time.
This absolutely depends on your needs.

For me it is simple: I am a developer with Gentoo being my main OS. But I fancy playing the Mass Effect trilogy, which won't do in Wine or a VM. So I need bare metal for both, Gentoo and Windows.

Additionally I have a Windows 10 VM used for Cross-Platform development and testing.

But if there aren't any special needs like that, I totally spring for having a VM and spare you the hazzle of dual-booting.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want full functionality:

- Install Microsoft Windows 10 in UEFI mode with Secure Boot enabled and use the entire disk;
- Resize the disk after installation in Microsoft Windows and define how much you want to use for Linux;
- Disable Secure Boot and install Gentoo Linux using SysRescueCD;
- Partition Linux on the leftover space;
- Copy the kernel to the ESR (EFI) VFAT partition;
- Install PreLoader or Shim and sign your kernel and modules;
- Create an EFI entry for Shim or PreLoader;
- Reboot and enable Secure Boot;

Do NOT attempt to install Grub or modify the Microsoft Windows Boot Loader obviously.

Both Microsoft Windows and Linux should be able to using Secure Boot and work next to one and another, but be careful with Microsoft Windows Upgrades to new Microsoft Windows 10 versions, because they might "update" (wipe) your ESR partition. So make sure you backup that partition regularly.
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Cuong Nguyen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

olger901 wrote:
Both Microsoft Windows and Linux should be able to using Secure Boot and work next to one and another, but be careful with Microsoft Windows Upgrades to new Microsoft Windows 10 versions, because they might "update" (wipe) your ESR partition. So make sure you backup that partition regularly.


Thanks for your very informative posting.
IMHO, use secure boot is not recommended, as nowadays Linux upgrades kernel very fast. It quite common that you'd forget to sign your new kernel and modules during upgrade and end up with non-bootable linux system :D
If you have enough disk space allocate a partition as linux-boot to keep kernel and initramfs files, together with a bootable system rescue cd files initram.tgz and sysrcd.dat (approx. 640MB), so you can always boot to Linux recovery environment
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a three boot system on my self assebled computer.
1. Win 10
2. Gentoo
3. Manjaro

Windows creates a vfat partition from where the UEFI Bios boots from.

In the UEFI Bios there is a boot manager, where you can select the boot entries.

Everything else is mentioned in the post above.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I installed Win 10 on a separate drive, it still installed its boot loader in my EFI partition on my main drive. I didn't plan for it to do that, but that worked out fine. Point the BIOS to boot my grub EFI install, and have a chainload entry in my grub menu.

If I didn't have it for gaming I would have gone for a VM, but maybe you need a license for that? On my bare metal install, the only thing I've noticed about running unlicensed (downloaded iso from Microsoft) is that I can't change my background picture. No big deal.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Windows 10 & Gentoo on 2018 Reply with quote

Xywa wrote:
Hi,

After 10 years or more ...

My question is, how is a best way (in 2018) to install / use both Windows 10 / Gentooo (dual boot)? I



I've been facing the same problem recently, but Sakkaki's guide is really great.
Look at the excellent one Sakaki's EFI Install Guide
including Preparing Windows for Dual Booting.

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charles17
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Joined: 02 Mar 2008
Posts: 2614

PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Windows 10 & Gentoo on 2018 Reply with quote

Marlo wrote:
Xywa wrote:
Hi,

After 10 years or more ...

My question is, how is a best way (in 2018) to install / use both Windows 10 / Gentooo (dual boot)? I



I've been facing the same problem recently, but Sakkaki's guide is really great.
Look at the excellent one Sakaki's EFI Install Guide

Another way is having a look at https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/EFI_System_Partition#Standard_layout.
When installing Gentoo, just leave enough unformatted space on the disk and do the M$ stuff later.
Windows 10 installer itself would create the partitions it needs and also create its own boot entry.
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