Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
32/64 bits: what to choose for old laptop?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Kernel & Hardware
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:37 pm    Post subject: 32/64 bits: what to choose for old laptop? Reply with quote

Old laptop Dell D430. Below is the cut of CPU-Z report:
Code:

Processors
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of sockets      1
Number of threads      2

APICs
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Socket 0   
   -- Core 0 (ID 0)   
      -- Thread 0   0
   -- Core 1 (ID 1)   
      -- Thread 1   1

Timers
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

   ACPI timer      3.580 MHz
   Perf timer      1.169 MHz
   Sys timer      1.000 KHz


Processors Information
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Socket 1         ID = 0
   Number of cores      2 (max 2)
   Number of threads   2 (max 2)
   Name         Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo U7600
   Codename      Merom
   Specification      Intel(R) Core(TM)2 CPU         U7600  @ 1.20GHz
   Package (platform ID)   Socket 479 mPGA (0x5)
   CPUID         6.F.2
   Extended CPUID      6.F
   Core Stepping      L2
   Technology      65 nm
   Core Speed      797.9 MHz
   Multiplier x Bus Speed   6.0 x 133.0 MHz
   Base frequency (cores)   133.0 MHz
   Base frequency (ext.)   133.0 MHz
   Rated Bus speed      531.9 MHz
   Stock frequency      1200 MHz
   Instructions sets   MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, EM64T, VT-x
   Microcode Revision   0x5C
   L1 Data cache      2 x 32 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
   L1 Instruction cache   2 x 32 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
   L2 cache      2048 KBytes, 8-way set associative, 64-byte line size
   Max CPUID level      0000000Ah
   Max CPUID ext. level   80000008h
   Cache descriptor   Level 1, D, 32 KB, 1 thread(s)
   Cache descriptor   Level 1, I, 32 KB, 1 thread(s)
   Cache descriptor   Level 2, U, 2 MB, 2 thread(s)
   FID/VID Control      yes
   FID range      6.0x - 9.0x
   Max VID         0.888 V


   IBRS         not supported
   IBPB         not supported
   STIBP         not supported
   RDCL_NO         no
   IBRS_ALL      not supported

   Temperature 0      58 degC (136 degF) (Core #0)
   Temperature 1      58 degC (136 degF) (Core #1)
   Clock Speed 0      797.88 MHz (Core #0)
   Clock Speed 1      797.88 MHz (Core #1)
   Core 0 max ratio   (effective) 9.0
   Core 1 max ratio   (effective) 9.0




Graphics
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of adapters      1

Graphic APIs
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

API            D3D
API            Intel I/O

Display Adapters
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Display adapter 0   
   ID         0x4000000
   Name         Mobile Intel(R) 945 Express Chipset Family
   Board Manufacturer   0x1028 (0x0201)
   PCI device      bus 0 (0x0), device 2 (0x2), function 0 (0x0)
   Vendor ID      0x8086 (0x1028)
   Model ID      0x27A2 (0x0201)
   Revision ID      0x3
   Performance Level   0

By experience, it was obtained that it can't handle more that 2G RAM. Is there any sense to install x86_64 Gentoo on it?
If not, what 'arch' to choose: i486 or i686?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Logicien
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you try to stress your processor laptop to know if it can support to compile Gento from sources? Your 2 cores are already at 58 degrees. They can become hot. In plus with only 1200 Mhz processor speed it will take long to compile I guess.

It is interesting to know if a 32 bits version of Gento have an advantage over a 64 bits. 32 bits versions of Linux distributions are going down. A lot of them only support 64 bits now.
_________________
Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 43559
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cord,
Your CPU is 64bit. Thats the EMT-64.
With more than 2G RAM, do a 64bit install.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
With more than 2G RAM, do a 64bit install.

I wrote, It doesn't support more than 2G (hardware restrictions).
Does it make sense in 64 bits, if more than 2 GB is not supported? Will 32-bit Gentoo run faster than 64?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
1clue
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2562

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cord wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
With more than 2G RAM, do a 64bit install.

I wrote, It doesn't support more than 2G (hardware restrictions).
Does it make sense in 64 bits, if more than 2 GB is not supported? Will 32-bit Gentoo run faster than 64?


For older hardware with no more than 2g it's not going to help much to go 64 bit.

Just a pointer though, you might want to google your laptop and other memory configs (3g, 4g, etc) because sometimes the manufacturer publishes a certain limit but users have verified that it can accept larger memory.

Gentoo on small-memory systems kinda sucks. If you can find a documented larger memory configuration, it would be worth a try. Memory in that range is extremely cheap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jaglover
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 7196
Location: Saint Amant, Acadiana

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

64-bit indeed, 2 GB is enough, although not plenty. 32-bit has been phased out by several major software providers.
_________________
Please learn how to denote units correctly!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1clue wrote:
cord wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
With more than 2G RAM, do a 64bit install.

I wrote, It doesn't support more than 2G (hardware restrictions).
Does it make sense in 64 bits, if more than 2 GB is not supported? Will 32-bit Gentoo run faster than 64?


For older hardware with no more than 2g it's not going to help much to go 64 bit.

Just a pointer though, you might want to google your laptop and other memory configs (3g, 4g, etc) because sometimes the manufacturer publishes a certain limit but users have verified that it can accept larger memory.

Gentoo on small-memory systems kinda sucks. If you can find a documented larger memory configuration, it would be worth a try. Memory in that range is extremely cheap.

No, it can't accept larger memory. I've checked it myself. There's one 1G chip soldered to the motherboard and one DIMM slot where I can insert also 1G memory module. If I insert there 2G module - laptop doesn't turn on.
Jaglover wrote:
64-bit indeed, 2 GB is enough, although not plenty. 32-bit has been phased out by several major software providers.

Thanks.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
1clue
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 2562

PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cord wrote:
1clue wrote:
cord wrote:
NeddySeagoon wrote:
With more than 2G RAM, do a 64bit install.

I wrote, It doesn't support more than 2G (hardware restrictions).
Does it make sense in 64 bits, if more than 2 GB is not supported? Will 32-bit Gentoo run faster than 64?


For older hardware with no more than 2g it's not going to help much to go 64 bit.

Just a pointer though, you might want to google your laptop and other memory configs (3g, 4g, etc) because sometimes the manufacturer publishes a certain limit but users have verified that it can accept larger memory.

Gentoo on small-memory systems kinda sucks. If you can find a documented larger memory configuration, it would be worth a try. Memory in that range is extremely cheap.

No, it can't accept larger memory. I've checked it myself. There's one 1G chip soldered to the motherboard and one DIMM slot where I can insert also 1G memory module. If I insert there 2G module - laptop doesn't turn on.
Jaglover wrote:
64-bit indeed, 2 GB is enough, although not plenty. 32-bit has been phased out by several major software providers.

Thanks.


OK that's good info.

While I personally use 64-bit whenever the system in question can handle it, there's not much advantage to using it on your laptop. 64-bit code is larger on the disk and larger in memory, and usually turns out to be a little slower than 32-bit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
abduct
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 203

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a bit of a toss up wither to go 32 or 64 bit. I personally go with the 64 bit option when ever possible. It provides more registers to developers at the low level end of development and allows for a greater number of raw bytes of data to be transferred in a single cpu instruction. This allows for applications to be better optimized and have faster throughput under specific cases. The down side is that 64bit systems use slightly more memory due to the double the size of instructions and pointers. They can also potentially be larger in file size as well due to similar reasons.

I don't have any benchmarks personally between a native 32bit os and a native 64bit os (no virtual abstractions of 32bit code on 64bit systems) unfortunately, I would be interested if anyone has anything of the like.

To be honest if you are worried install both one at a time and run some benchmarks, but to me I'd just use 64bit. On my laptop booted fully into X with a few terminals and ssh sessions open I only use approx 100mb of ram. If you don't use X I wouldn't be surprised if you hit sub 60mb usage levels.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ct85711
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 1702

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing to also keep in mind, is that more projects are starting to discontinue supporting 32bit all together (not just various distros). So either way you look at it, 32bit support is dying off slowly. Now depending on your what your needs are, you may end up reinstalling as 64bit to continue updating some software.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ant P.
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 5879

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can install a 32-bit userspace on a 64-bit kernel. No screwing around with highmem settings that way, and more importantly you'll get patches for the Intel security nightmares of 2018.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cwr
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Posts: 1969

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've run Gentoo pretty successfully on Thinkpad T23s (1 GHz / 1GB RAM), after
stripping down the kernel so that all modules were built in, and only those
modules which the hardware needed were installed. (There were a couple of
exceptions which had to be unloaded/loaded for hibernation.) The same generation
of Ubuntu was pretty slow, especially on boot, since it checked out every module
in sight.

I'd be inclined to use 32-bits for 2GB of RAM; 64 bits isn't going to buy you
anything, and will probably take up more space. One advantage of Gentoo
is that you get to build the system which best fits your needs.

Will
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mr-simon
Guru
Guru


Joined: 22 Nov 2002
Posts: 364
Location: Leamington Spa, Warks, UK

PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With that 2G of RAM, you're going to want to be downloading some -bin packages, rather than compiling huge things yourself (assuming you want a browser on that hardware) and as mentioned earlier some people are dropping 32-bit support in their binaries. ymmv, but you're not losing much by using 64-bit. I don't think you'll notice a performance difference.

64-bit binaries may use more RAM, although I don't think that this will be particularly significant as the binary code isn't going to be the thing that's taking up your RAM space -- it'll be the stuff that your binaries allocate space for manually, which will be the same size either way.

They'll take up more space on the disk, but again that's not really going to be the bottleneck as far as storage is concerned, unless you're really squeaky on space.

Presonally, I'd go with 64.

With 'arch', the general consensus I think is to leave make.conf alone, and if you want the fastest binaries possible then use -march=native so that gcc can work out what's best for you.

What do you plan to do with the laptop once you've installed Gentoo on it?
_________________
"Pokey, are you drunk on love?"
"Yes. Also whiskey. But mostly love... and whiskey."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 43559
Location: 56N 3W

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cord,

Sorry about missing your 2G statement.

With over 1G of RAM, the 32 bit kernel does some extra work to use it all. That's the HIMEM setting in the kernel. At 2G it has to do more.
2G is about the tipping point to go 64 bit. Pointers use mare RAM but there is no HIMEM setting to use it all.

A long time ago (abandoned now I think) Gentoo supported a hybrid 64 bit addressing with 32 bit everything else install.
Don't go there, I think work was abandoned before it was completed but it was interesting at the time.

32 bit is a sunset install. Its not as well tested as 64 bit any more and in Gentoo, 64 bit gets more support than 32 bit and that difference will accelerate.

On balance, do a 64 bit install.

-- edit --

You can have a 32 bit userland on top of a 64 bit kernel, which avoids the HIMEM issues, however, that's its own nest of vipers as the 32 bit toolchain cannot build a 64 bit kernel.
With support for a 32 bit userland declining, that's possibly the worst of all worlds.
_________________
Regards,

NeddySeagoon

Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
those that have never had a hard drive fail.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank You All!
I think, I'll try 64.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
paluszak
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 228
Location: Warsaw, Poland

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would suggest compiling with -Os and possibly lto to reduce memory usage.

I also have an impression that older desktop systems with small CPU cache feel 'snappier' when compiled with -Os, but I did not do any tests to confirm this.


Last edited by paluszak on Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
LIsLinuxIsSogood
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 13 Feb 2016
Posts: 1066

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have access to another Gentoo host that could server as a BINHOST?

Also invest in a good fan as well if possible else leave PC in a well ventilated area :)

If you wanted to spend the same time but a different way you could be finding a way to make the stage4 archive with all your planned installed packages on a separate machine and then clone over to the laptop. This saves the initial compiling, but then later you will still need to figure out what to do with updated, plus this way isn't recommended without better understanding of system rescues, backup and restore procedures.

If you did have access to a build-server of sorts that was more powerful I think the good news is with 32-bit vs. 64-bit since the architecture doesn't change drastically you can (I think) do this without a cross-compiler.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have installed 64-bit Gentoo. Looks like it working well. But it's very hard to build some @system packages (dev-qt/qtwebkit foe example).
BINHOST is good idea, and yes, I have machine for that (Core i5 / 8 GiB RAM). But I find difficult to define CFLAGS variables - both are set to "-march=native -O2 -pipe" (no problems with CPU_FLAGS_X86, it's clear). I understand, that CPU flag sets are different...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
C5ace
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 286
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I run 64 bit Xfce in Virtualbox with 2 cores with 512KB RAM and 4GB Swap. Compiling and running Gentoo, Firefox, Thunderbird and Openoffice works fine but slow. Emerge @world takes 3 days.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

C5ace wrote:
I run 64 bit Xfce in Virtualbox with 2 cores with 512KB RAM and 4GB Swap. Compiling and running Gentoo, Firefox, Thunderbird and Openoffice works fine but slow. Emerge @world takes 3 days.

Maybe you mean 512MiB?
In my case only qtwebkit compiling took 3 days, with total computer inaccessibility.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
C5ace
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2013
Posts: 286
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cord wrote:
C5ace wrote:
I run 64 bit Xfce in Virtualbox with 2 cores with 512KB RAM and 4GB Swap. Compiling and running Gentoo, Firefox, Thunderbird and Openoffice works fine but slow. Emerge @world takes 3 days.

Maybe you mean 512MiB?
In my case only qtwebkit compiling took 3 days, with total computer inaccessibility.

Sorry, should read 512MB RAM.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cord
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 303

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find out script that lists me necessary flags:
Code:
#!/bin/bash
echo $(
    gcc -v -march=native -x c /dev/null 2>&1 \
        | fgrep -- '-march' \
        | egrep -o ' (-m|--param )\S+' \
        | fgrep -v -- '-mno-'
)

And now I wrote script for making binnaries

Code:

#!/bin/bash
# Huge packages: dev-qt/qtwebkit www-client/firefox dev-qt/qtwebengine app-office/libreoffice sys-kernel/gentoo-sources sys-devel/gcc

CFLAGS="-march=core2 -mmmx -msse -msse2 -msse3 -mssse3 -mcx16 -msahf -mfxsr --param l1-cache-size=32 --param l1-cache-line-size=64 --param l2-cache-size=2048 -mtune=core2 -O2 -pipe" CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS}" PKGDIR="/home/ftp/gentoo-distfiles/packages/" PORTAGE_BINHOST="ftp://172.16.0.1/gentoo-distfiles/packages" MAKEOPTS="-j5" emerge -vB dev-qt/qtwebkit

Would that work?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
josephg
l33t
l33t


Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 783
Location: usually offline

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cord wrote:
Would that work?

Have you seen what the wiki says..
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GCC_optimization#-msse.2C_-msse2.2C_-msse3.2C_-mmmx.2C_-m3dnow
Quote:
Normally none of these flags need to be added to /etc/portage/make.conf, as long as the system is using the correct -march (for example, -march=nocona implies -msse3)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
eccerr0r
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 7195
Location: almost Mile High in the USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides the fact that 32-bit support is waning, I find that the 64-bit install on a Core2 machine I'm working on is hoggy on RAM and 2GB is a bit low. That is, it seems to hit swap a lot sooner than what I would expect compared to another machine with a 32-bit install with like 2GB of RAM.

Compiling -Os will at least help your text sizes, but data sizes can still be huge.

YMMV - I was planning to upgrade a Core2 Quad with 4GB RAM to 64-bit to help future proof it a bit...
_________________
Intel Core i7 2700K@ 4.1GHz/HD3000 graphics/8GB DDR3/180GB SSD
What am I supposed watching?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
josephg
l33t
l33t


Joined: 10 Jan 2016
Posts: 783
Location: usually offline

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eccerr0r wrote:
Besides the fact that 32-bit support is waning, I find that the 64-bit install on a Core2 machine I'm working on is hoggy on RAM and 2GB is a bit low. That is, it seems to hit swap a lot sooner than what I would expect compared to another machine with a 32-bit install with like 2GB of RAM.

Compiling -Os will at least help your text sizes, but data sizes can still be huge.

i experienced the same when i initially started moving to 64bits with all gung ho.. quickly realising that i wasn't getting much of the expected benefits. so now i have everything on 32bits. having them all on 32bit is easier for me to manage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Kernel & Hardware All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum