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sumati
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:07 pm    Post subject: Is there an effective method for installing Gentoo? Reply with quote

I knew already that Gentoo is difficult before I started to install it, and now I really experienced how it is difficult. The most difficult steps are the configuration of kernel and the installation of a bootloader. There are so many possibilities, even I selected all the recommended default settings, it results in a report of errors. Although the handbook offers detailed information and there are additionally also many guides for the installation, none of them can lead me to accomplishing the installation. I don't know if there are other persons who have the similar experience like mine. I wonder if there is really an effective way for the new user to finish the first part of the installation. I mean, I want to have a method which can let me just install the base system of Gentoo, namely kernel and bootloader, so that I can boot into the new system and install all other packages. I have a quite new computer with 86_64 as the architecture, prefer using rEFInd as the bootloader. (By the way, many information in the handbook and guides are out-of-date) Any suggestions are heartily welcome.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi sumati. The first suggestion would be to bypass the kernel configuration by using genkernel. This option is described in the Handbook. It'll be one less thing for you to worry about until you gain a little more experience with Gentoo. You can always revisit this decision after you've got a working system. Most things are not final in a Gentoo install. ;)

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mike155
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumati wrote:
(By the way, many information in the handbook and guides are out-of-date)

Hi sumati,

I have two questions:
  1. Which init system do you want to install? OpenRC? Or Systemd?
  2. Did you read the English handbook? Or a translation?
I just read the first part of the English handbook ('installation') carefully, because I updated the German translation. I think the handbook is still useful for users who want to install OpenRC. It's true that some parts are outdated and I agree that those sections should be updated.

The situation is worse for users who want to install Systemd. The handbook tells them in the middle of the handbook (in section 'Optional: Using systemd as the init system') to stop reading the handbook and to go to a Wiki article. Unfortunately, that article does not start where the handbook stopped. Users are lost and don't know how to proceed. That's inadequate. A fundamental overhaul of our handbook is strictly necessary. Given the fact that Systemd is a de-facto standard nowadays and that the majority of new users probably wants Systemd, the handbook should tell users how to get a Systemd machine up and running.
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etnull
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe my first install was with genkernel but I'm not sure, regardless it wasn't that difficult, just time consuming. It mainly depends on your prior command line experience, I remember installing Arch for the first time was difficult because I constantly forgot my partitioning scheme during all of the commands I were typing, I could mess up the chroot procedure, or I could invoke the bootstrap script from the wrong directory, very nooby mistakes like that. On the command line you have different kind of spacial awareness, it differs from regular GUI in the sense that you have to always know(remind) yourself where you are, what are you doing now and what your next step is.
The Kernel configuration usually needed for special hardware/requirements, you will tailor it to your system with time, it doesn't have to be done all at once just make initial setup for your graphic card, save your .config file, and the rest of things can be done later, always updating your config file.
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sumati
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike155 wrote:
sumati wrote:
(By the way, many information in the handbook and guides are out-of-date)

Hi sumati,

I have two questions:
  1. Which init system do you want to install? OpenRC? Or Systemd?
  2. Did you read the English handbook? Or a translation?
I just read the first part of the English handbook ('installation') carefully, because I updated the German translation. I think the handbook is still useful for users who want to install OpenRC. It's true that some parts are outdated and I agree that those sections should be updated.

The situation is worse for users who want to install Systemd. The handbook tells them in the middle of the handbook (in section 'Optional: Using systemd as the init system') to stop reading the handbook and to go to a Wiki article. Unfortunately, that article does not start where the handbook stopped. Users are lost and don't know how to proceed. That's inadequate. A fundamental overhaul of our handbook is strictly necessary. Given the fact that Systemd is a de-facto standard nowadays and that the majority of new users probably wants Systemd, the handbook should tell users how to get a Systemd machine up and running.

Hi Veteran,
thanks for the reply. To your first question: I read the English handbook and others like Gentoo Wiki and various Guides; and to your second question: I want to use Systemd, since it is quicker than OpernRC. Probably I need to wait until the information updated.
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sumati
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear all,
many thanks to all who replied. I also tried with genkernel, but after "emerge genkernel", by running "genkernel all" I received error-report. I tried to solve the problem by following the suggestions given in the forum, no result. Another question: Since I want to install the rEFInd Boot Manager, I created the first partition with FAT. But in the handbook and other guides they all talk about GRUB and LILO, and the first partition is ext2 or ext4. I am not sure if my partition setting is the cause of my failure.
Best wishes
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charles17
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumati wrote:
Since I want to install the rEFInd Boot Manager, I created the first partition with FAT.

Why not keep it simple and start with EFI stub kernel?
rEFInd can be installed later - if ever needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumati,

If you use UEFI to start the system you need a small VFAT partition to hold the program(s) that the UEFI needs to read.
This is your boot loader or any other EFI compliant program, like an EFI stub kernel.
UEFI firwmare can only read VFAT.
Your kernel need not go here unless its an EFI stub kernel.

BIOS is quite different. It can't read any filesystems at all. All it does is to load LBA 0 into RAM and execute it.
That's usually stage1 of your boot loader.
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sumati
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

charles17 wrote:
sumati wrote:
Since I want to install the rEFInd Boot Manager, I created the first partition with FAT.

Why not keep it simple and start with EFI stub kernel?
rEFInd can be installed later - if ever needed.

Thanks for the concrete suggestion. I did following the linked instruction, but I don't know, after running "make menuconfig", how to add "(root=PARTUUID=adf55784-15d9-4ca3-bb3f-56de0b35d88d)" according to the instruction (of course I should replace the PARUUID with my root-partition). Without doing that, when I run "make modules_install" I received a warning: "missing 'System.map' file. Skipping demmod". And further, I cannot find "bzImage" in the directory "/arch/x86/boot", thus I failed to continue. Please give me your suggestion. Thanks in advance!
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fturco
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You should select the "Processor type and features" section. At the end you will find "Built-in kernel command line". Enable it (Y). Then, the "Built-in kernel command" option will appear. Select it, type Enter and insert your kernel parameter.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sumati,

Its not "/arch/x86/boot", thats an absolute path.
Its "arch/x86/boot" which is relative to the to current directory, That leading "/" changes the entire meaning.

If bzImage is actually missing, the kernel build failed, We need the build log.

For the built in kernel command line, in menuconfig go to the Processor type and features menu.
Near the bottom is
Code:
  │ │         [ ] Built-in kernel command line                                               │ │ 
  │ │         ()    Built-in kernel command string

Turn on the first option.
The second option takes a text string.
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sumati
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
sumati,

Its not "/arch/x86/boot", thats an absolute path.
Its "arch/x86/boot" which is relative to the to current directory, That leading "/" changes the entire meaning.

If bzImage is actually missing, the kernel build failed, We need the build log.

For the built in kernel command line, in menuconfig go to the Processor type and features menu.
Near the bottom is
Code:
  │ │         [ ] Built-in kernel command line                                               │ │ 
  │ │         ()    Built-in kernel command string

Turn on the first option.
The second option takes a text string.

Tanks. Sorry, I mean "arch/x86/boot" in the "usr/src/linux directory", bzImage is not there. I have also selected "[ ] Built-in kernel command line".
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OldTango
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is all about choices and because we have more choices today than we did in the earlier days, like UEFI vs MBR or OPENRC vs SYSTEMD, more thought needs to go into the choices we make before we begin our installation. The trouble with the handbook is it's a one size fits all guide. This is fine for experienced users but can be very confusing to new comers. My advise to new comers is to read the entire handbook first along with any other docs necessary before they begin installing Gentoo. Some early choices are not easy (if not impossible) to change later, however many things can be added or altered once you have a booting system.

On new or fresh installs, my preferred choice is the KISS method. Pure UEFI (secure boot and CMS disabled in BIOS), openrc, with a manually built gentoo-sources EFI stud kernel. I don't use any secondary BOOT LOADERS like GRUB or LILO. I don't have any real need to use RAID or LVM so I don't. Because I don't use systemd, I set the profile to /deafult/linux/amd64/17.1 which sets a very minimal set of USE flags. Nothing gets set in the (USE:="") variable in the make.conf. Everything else gets done after I have rebooted into a working Gentoo install. You most likely want to know your Gentoo is going to boot before you spend several hours building and installing all of the other packages you may need or want.

The most difficult part of installing Gentoo is configuring the kernel so it will boot. This will take time for someone new to linux kernels but the handbook will help with most of the problems you will encounter. The kernel has to be built to support YOUR hardware, files systems and graphics choices or it won't boot.

When it won't boot, the forums can get you going in the right direction. Do your best to post as much information as possible so others can provide you with the help you need. Info like "it results in a report of errors" or "I have a quite new computer with 86_64 as the architecture" isn't particularly helpful. You should post the exact error you are getting, provide your hardware specs and maybe your kernel .config file if requested. At the very least the output of
Code:
emerge --info
will tell us a lot about your system and setup.

Best Tango..... :)
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sumati
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply Reply with quote

OldTango wrote:
Gentoo is all about choices and because we have more choices today than we did in the earlier days, like UEFI vs MBR or OPENRC vs SYSTEMD, more thought needs to go into the choices we make before we begin our installation. The trouble with the handbook is it's a one size fits all guide. This is fine for experienced users but can be very confusing to new comers. My advise to new comers is to read the entire handbook first along with any other docs necessary before they begin installing Gentoo. Some early choices are not easy (if not impossible) to change later, however many things can be added or altered once you have a booting system.

On new or fresh installs, my preferred choice is the KISS method. Pure UEFI (secure boot and CMS disabled in BIOS), openrc, with a manually built gentoo-sources EFI stud kernel. I don't use any secondary BOOT LOADERS like GRUB or LILO. I don't have any real need to use RAID or LVM so I don't. Because I don't use systemd, I set the profile to /deafult/linux/amd64/17.1 which sets a very minimal set of USE flags. Nothing gets set in the (USE:="") variable in the make.conf. Everything else gets done after I have rebooted into a working Gentoo install. You most likely want to know your Gentoo is going to boot before you spend several hours building and installing all of the other packages you may need or want.

The most difficult part of installing Gentoo is configuring the kernel so it will boot. This will take time for someone new to linux kernels but the handbook will help with most of the problems you will encounter. The kernel has to be built to support YOUR hardware, files systems and graphics choices or it won't boot.

When it won't boot, the forums can get you going in the right direction. Do your best to post as much information as possible so others can provide you with the help you need. Info like "it results in a report of errors" or "I have a quite new computer with 86_64 as the architecture" isn't particularly helpful. You should post the exact error you are getting, provide your hardware specs and maybe your kernel .config file if requested. At the very least the output of
Code:
emerge --info
will tell us a lot about your system and setup.

Best Tango..... :)

Quote:


Thanks! I will follow your suggestions and try again.
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elover
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 20, 2019 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Is there an effective method for installing Gentoo? Reply with quote

sumati wrote:
I knew already that Gentoo is difficult before I started to install it, and now I really experienced how it is difficult. The most difficult steps are the configuration of kernel and the installation of a bootloader. There are so many possibilities, even I selected all the recommended default settings, it results in a report of errors. Although the handbook offers detailed information and there are additionally also many guides for the installation, none of them can lead me to accomplishing the installation. I don't know if there are other persons who have the similar experience like mine. I wonder if there is really an effective way for the new user to finish the first part of the installation. I mean, I want to have a method which can let me just install the base system of Gentoo, namely kernel and bootloader, so that I can boot into the new system and install all other packages. I have a quite new computer with 86_64 as the architecture, prefer using rEFInd as the bootloader. (By the way, many information in the handbook and guides are out-of-date) Any suggestions are heartily welcome.


Hello, welcome to the forum

I had to create a new account because the mail provider closed and I don't remember the password.

I recommend the guide sakaki's, for me is the most complete wiki

This guide is for an EFI installation with system encryption and with many scripts that will make booting easier.
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lefsha
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As the one who started with Gentoo back in 2004 and went through many distros and just came back I could say following:

1. In Gentoo usually you know what do you want and why. If that is not the case it's hard to justify that choice.

2. At your place I would download the last Ubuntu image and write it on USB stick. Boot in demo mode
and make sure Internet is working.

3. Navigate to Installation Book and do everything step by step.

4. There is no need to optimize kernel or anything at the beginning. You can use standard - unmodified
configuration from Genkernel or even Ubuntu you are running from.

5. Surely Gentoo is all about choice/options, although you will recognize quite soon there are limitations.
You may choose Systemd and even do everything like in Arch, but Arch you can get with much less pain directly.

6. While installing Gentoo you should get used to Ubuntu and may be you will like it. Then again, what the point
to fight against source codes, where you can enjoy Ubuntu in 10 min after booting from USB?

7. My experience tells me one should grow above any distro available to be willing start with Gentoo.
If you don't know why you need it - you probably don't need it. If working Desktop is all what you want,
Gentoo is probably not for you.

P.S. I AM NOT TRYING TO ROB (scare) YOU! I'm trying to help you. (c) Gendalf
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