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Can I get Gentoo Linux as minimal as KISS Linux?
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unix21311
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:12 pm    Post subject: Can I get Gentoo Linux as minimal as KISS Linux? Reply with quote

According to KISS Linux's website:

Quote:

* Explicitly excludes the following software:

dbus, systemd, polkit, gettext, intltool,
pulseaudio, pam, wayland, logind, ConsoleKit2
and all Desktop Environments.


And

Quote:

* Choice! The coreutils, init, device manager,
compiler, shell and * can be replaced. There's no
lock-in to specific software (excluding musl and
the kernel of course).


According to a user, he claims that he managed to use around 60 MB of RAM with his setup (which includes the use of his window manager).

It is possible to configure Gentoo in a similar setup as KISS Linux in terms of excluding the packages KISS has excluded and only including the packages KISS uses and have a similar minimal RAM usage?


Last edited by unix21311 on Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jaglover
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no reason why not.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of those are easily optional on gentoo as well, controlled by profile selection and USE flags (like USE=-pam will get rid of pam assuming you don't use software that hard-require it)

You're not forced to use any init system in particular (although typically you'll use openrc on gentoo if not using systemd), things like logind/polkit/consolekit/etc.. are only needed for bigger desktop environment and not a simple window manager. Gentoo does provide elogind as a logind alternative though.

For device manager, nowadays it's a bit harder to live without eudev/udev on a desktop system but it's possible. I'd recommend to just use eudev anyway.

For compiler, support is geared toward gcc albeit building much of gentoo with clang is not "impossible". You can also use musl if you like (there's a musl profile), but I prefer to stick with glibc myself.

There's no problem using libasound(alsa) over pulseaudio, worst case you can also use apulse to make most pulseaudio-only applications work without pulseaudio being around at all.

Things like gettext/intltool will typically have to stay on the machine that does the building but USE=-nls will pass --disable-nls when possible. Some basic tools like coreutils/bash also aren't really replaceable (albeit you can use dash for /bin/sh if you like), you'll also need python for portage (what gentoo use to build/manage packages), etc... so there is "some" not-too-invasive locked-in stuff expressed by the @system set in profiles. Gentoo does need more stuff to be able to handle building packages with sometime weird build-time dependencies, albeit you could strip down the resulting built system for embedded use.

And my gentoo-based server is running using like 30MB ram (running a few services, nginx, inspircd, smtpd, some ssh sessions, tmux, etc...) and could even add a stripped-down Xorg and some simple window manager without using much more... but... compiling needs much more resources than that, so you may have to be build packages on another machine (which is what I do for my server) if RAM/cpu is a concern, distcc is also an option although in my case I also need 1 rust-built package :(
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etnull
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dbus is tricky you can't get rid of it if using nvidia proprietary drivers, and even if you are using free driver then many packages still require dbus, to get rid of it you would need to find patched ebuilds, or do it yourself, -dbus is not as straight forward as other USE flags.
gettext, intltool - I'm not sure about these ones, my assumption is that they will be preinstalled even on the most minimal profile.
udev/eudev - must be even harder now, after we transitioned to libinput exclusively.
musl - I had no experience with it, but I almost certain that the more you deviate from your 'standard' linux distro, like: systemd+openssl+libc+gcc the more edge cases you will encounter. There are simply not enough of eyes on unorthodox configurations like: S6+libressl+musl+clang, things may not work well with each other or be incompatible with something you need.


Last edited by etnull on Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:38 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
gettext, intltool, - I'm not sure about these ones, my assumption is that they will be preinstalled even on the most minimal profile.
It's something that's required on the build machine, on my actual target with minimalist USE (that uses packages I built), I have neither installed (depcleaned through emerge --with-bdeps=n -c). And that's why things like KISS can do away with it on their final binary target.

If you're going to run a normal gentoo system that also builds everything for itself, then not much can be done about all the extra build dependencies.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't get why wayland gets in to the "blacklist". It's only a protocol, and I think the (runtime) depencies of libwayland and say wlroots aren't that many.

Anyway. The fist time I read about that distro, I thought "neat".
I really have to raise my hat. Making package manager out of posix shell scripts is cool.
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Ionen
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

etnull wrote:
dbus is tricky you can't get rid of it if using nvidia proprietary drivers, and even if you are using free driver then many packages still require dbus, to get rid of it you would need to find patched ebuilds, or do it yourself, -dbus is not as straight forward as other USE flags.
As far as I'm aware nvidia-drivers only needs dbus with USE=tools (aka nvidia-settings, which also uses gtk/cairo and all that stuff), which while handy is not essential. But yeah, there's plenty of other things to deal with depending on what you use. For instance gtk+3 indirectly need dbus because of at-spi2-atk, which you "can" remove through a modified ebuild+patch as you mention (I recall there's an overlay with that, I forget which).

dbus is relatively small without any notable non-optional dependencies though, and I "personally" only need the user session (don't need system-wide dbus), so I'm mostly fine keeping it around.
Edit: on my desktop anyway, the server I mentioned in my earlier post unsurprisingly doesn't have dbus installed, and it wouldn't be required for a simple window manager + X if not using weird/unpatched toolkits.
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pjp
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zucca wrote:
I don't get why wayland gets in to the "blacklist". It's only a protocol, and I think the (runtime) depencies of libwayland and say wlroots aren't that many.


Quote:
mywayland

This repository brings Wayland to KISS. It includes Sway, wlroots and
other required packages. Same as above, any user is able to enable
this repository to start running Wayland.

Source: https://github.com/sdsddsd1/mywayland


This is what I was hoping for when creating the repository system and
the imposed limits to the size of the official repositories.

An "ecosystem" of repositories (by users!) which complement and
extend the base system.
https://k1ss.org/blog/20200316a
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unix21311
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all of your replies :)

etnull wrote:
dbus is tricky you can't get rid of it if using nvidia proprietary drivers, and even if you are using free driver then many packages still require dbus, to get rid of it you would need to find patched ebuilds, or do it yourself, -dbus is not as straight forward as other USE flags.
gettext, intltool - I'm not sure about these ones, my assumption is that they will be preinstalled even on the most minimal profile.
udev/eudev - must be even harder now, after we transitioned to libinput exclusively.
musl - I had no experience with it, but I almost certain that the more you deviate from your 'standard' linux distro, like: systemd+openssl+libc+gcc the more edge cases you will encounter. There are simply not enough of eyes on unorthodox configurations like: S6+libressl+musl+clang, things may not work well with each other or be incompatible with something you need.


then how does KISS run fine on other people's systems just out of curiosity?
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desultory
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unix21311 wrote:
then how does KISS run fine on other people's systems just out of curiosity?
Making a distribution defined by "does not include features $X, $Y or $Z" is fairly simple: do not include software dependent upon features $X, $Y, or $Z. installing arbitrary software on that distribution without violating the exclusions of $X, $Y and $Z is rather more involved if fully generalized. In short, there is a trade off between the simplicity of the installed system and the simplicity of managing that system as its administrator administrator. It is up to you to decide how much time and effort you want to put in to maintaining a preferred software stack versus your preferred feature set versus actually using the system.
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coderanger
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Can I get Gentoo Linux as minimal as KISS Linux? Reply with quote

unix21311 wrote:
According to a user, he claims that he managed to use around 60 MB of RAM with his setup (which includes the use of his window manager).

He can make a few additional steps towards minimal ram usage: runlevel 1, unload window manager when any application starts, cut off half a kernel config =) People are free to do whatever with their linux installations =)
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