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goretz
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Why I'm sayin gentoo is not user friendly Reply with quote

To make story very short. I was chatting today on gentoo irc channell.

Asking legitimate technical questions and receiving mostly dumb answers :

Like "you forgot to plug in your PC" and such.

All this so called conversation simply ended when i was banned from the channel.

I did and i do have some problem with emerge --rsync. Instead of helping me to find out what was the problem
Most that i get was you should run memtest for 24 hours !!!

It is shame ! Really shame , cause I will badmouth GENTOO as a whole distribution if that issue wouldn't be corrected.

I was trying to be as polite as i could. But ...

come to #gentoo-ops tomorrow if you want to talk again. until then, I bid you a good day.

a3li - gentoo developer ? Alex Legler who put me on ban , can I have an explanation on this forum why you did this ?
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timeBandit
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Gentoo Forums Feedback to Other Things Gentoo, as this is not a criticism of forums.gentoo.org.

Quote:
I will badmouth GENTOO as a whole distribution if that issue wouldn't be corrected.
That would be unfortunate, and rather like blaming your electrician for the bad advice your neighbor gave you about rewiring your house.

Although the IRC channels are an officially-sponsored support medium, many people providing support there are users like yourself (albeit knowledgeable ones), not necessarily Gentoo developers or staff. Not having observed the conversation, I can't comment further except to say that, sadly, sometimes free support is worth what you pay for it.

Please try posting your question here on the forums. Each option (IRC v. forums) has its good and bad days, but overall we have one of the most helpful, patient and professional communities of any distro.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although the IRC channels are an officially-sponsored support medium, many people providing support there are users like yourself (albeit knowledgeable ones), not necessarily Gentoo developers or staff.

The person which put me on ban is indeed gentoo developer.

I think you have logs of all irc sessions , so you could verify what i said exactly. My nickname on IRC was simply "elena".
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goretz wrote:
The person which put me on ban is indeed gentoo developer.
I overlooked your mention of a ban, which of course would require action from a channel operator/developer. I will not comment further without reading a transcript.
Quote:
I think you have logs of all irc sessions, so you could verify what i said exactly.
In that, you are mistaken.

(Edit: Apologies for moving this twice; it is more appropriate for Chat as it is not a support question.)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timebandit :
Quote:
I will not comment further without reading a transcript.


I might be confusing in terminology, speaking about logs of irc sessions, but that is what i really
meant, that you can read the transcript somehow.

Also, I'm not that proficient in irc chat terminology i couldn't understand your remark about

Quote:
I overlooked your mention of a ban, which of course would require action from a channel operator/developer.


In simple english. After some action which was executed by a3li I was muted. I can see what is written, but can't write myself. I don't know if it is called "banned" or muted or something else.

The final result is the same: no more real help.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

goretz,

If you have a problem with what happend in #gentoo, email ops AT gentoo.org
The forums team cannot help you resolve that.
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b0nafide
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

?!!??!! goretz did post his problem on these forums and it is being resolved.

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-814814-highlight-.html

This seems like "real help" to me.
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regomodo
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's one guy in the irc who bans a lot and generally acts like a dick. Someone got banned for making a gentoo joke. I the got threatened with a ban for pointing out that the ban was abit much.
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goretz
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neddy Seagoon I'm not going to mail anybody on your channel complaining more than i did already.

Not that I'm asking from forum team to resolve something what happened on irc.gentoo.org.

I'm only reporting on that forum. I may stop using this forums as well if I'm asking too much ...

Still I think that ban wasn't very friendly.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Re: Why I'm sayin gentoo is not user friendly Reply with quote

goretz wrote:
Neddy Seagoon I'm not going to mail anybody on your channel complaining more than i did already. ... Still I think that ban wasn't very friendly.
Really, you should, or at least discuss it on #gentoo-ops. It's commonplace to reverse a ban (or mute, or whatever) in response to a polite inquiry and calm discussion to resolve any differences of opinion.

goretz wrote:
a3li - gentoo developer ? Alex Legler who put me on ban , can I have an explanation on this forum why you did this ?
a3li/Alex is unlikely to see your request or respond here--he is not a frequent contributor to the forums. Which reminds me, ...
Quote:
I'm only reporting on that forum. I may stop using this forums as well if I'm asking too much ...
We're simply trying to steer you in the right direction. Forums and IRC are run by different groups of people, so reporting to one about the other generally doesn't get results. We each have enough to do on our respective projects. :)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience in one of the Gentoo IRC channels. Secondly, as TimeBandit and NeddySeagoon mentioned, the IRC channels are separate media from the fora. Therefore, we can't help you in reversing the ban that was placed. However, I'm not simply trying to redirect your complaint; I'm glad that you voiced your concern here as well. You may want to send a PM to the developer here through the forum, or even via email to get an explanation for the ban. I hope that you don't stop using the fora because of a bad experience in an IRC channel; we are genuinely here to help, and if it is within our power to do so, we will. Please let me or another moderator, administrator, or member of the Gentoo staff know if there is anything that we can do.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must say, most of the time the devs help wherever they can, but sometimes they f**k you, and I've read it several times. I dont know why this is the case, but this happens everywhere in forums.(Not a specific gentoo problem) Its like real life sometimes people are in a strange mude, or drunk or whatever. I'd rather ignore it than wasting my time complaining
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to reiterate what NathanZachary and timeBandit already said, we can't help you solve a problem with the IRC operators. I don't even know who they are as I rarely go into IRC, it's just not my cup of tea plus I am a busy man and I have problems to hold a synchronous conversation for more than 5 minutes without getting interrupted, which is why I largely prefer the forum and the mailing lists due to the asynchronous nature.

We are here to help, if you have problem just ask away on the relevant section of the forum and I am pretty sure that people will try to help if they can. But always bear in mind that support here is given in a voluntary basis, mostly by other users. You are not paying for support and you have absolutely no right to complain if the rest of forum users can't help you of if they lack the knowledge to do so. We are all humans on the other end of the wire. I am not stating that you did that on IRC, I am just enunciating a basic civic rule that you must follow on this forum (as well as on IRC or the MLs). I can't even give a personal opinion (not that I would anyway) about what happened because:
  • I don't know the IRC ops.
  • I don't know you.
  • I don't even have a chat log, which by the way, you should be saving yourself next time as a proof, just like you save the bills or any other important paperwork.

I am sure that most problems of the kind come from either misunderstandings, because I assume that most users that are only interested in trolling wouldn't be writing this kind of note on the forum. So I assume as well that you are not a troll and that your interest in fixing the issue is legitimate. In such case, as the others have said, my advice is contacting with the IRC system operators, preferably one that is not the same one that banned you and that can act as a mediator. If you are not interested in fixing the issue, just use the forums and mailing lists, but my personal opinion in this matter (this one I can safely tell you) is that if you had such a problem on IRC you should try to fix it. It will benefit both sides, and if there's indeed an operator that is not doing his/her work the right way I am sure that the rest of his companions will be interested in knowing that.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I'm sayin gentoo is not user friendly Reply with quote

I am very disappointed to see this here. I am presented here as the bad evil operator who kicked an innocent user. That is not what happened.

goretz wrote:
To make story very short. I was chatting today on gentoo irc channell.

Asking legitimate technical questions and receiving mostly dumb answers :

Like "you forgot to plug in your PC" and such.


1.) You forgot to say that you insulted volunteers trying to help you ("<elena> peratu you are not very smart")
2.) You forgot to say that you repeatedly used UPPERCASE even after you were told not to.
3.) You forgot to say that what you call a "dumb answer" (the "you forgot to plug in your PC" thing) was never said to you directly. Instead, it was an analogy made that you probably did not understand because your English skills are lacking.
4.) You forgot to say that you faced the people in the channel with breathtaking arrogance ("<elena> Pls, dont waste my time with obvious solutions")

Quote:

All this so called conversation simply ended when i was banned from the channel.


..and you're even going on with that arrogance here. "so called conversation"? Who do you think you are?

Quote:

I did and i do have some problem with emerge --rsync. Instead of helping me to find out what was the problem
Most that i get was you should run memtest for 24 hours !!!


You got that advice as part of a basic system check after the obvious ideas did not work out. If you chose not to follow that basic advice, we cannot help you.

Quote:

It is shame ! Really shame , cause I will badmouth GENTOO as a whole distribution if that issue wouldn't be corrected.


Are you attempting to blackmail us?

Quote:

I was trying to be as polite as i could. But ...


The way you were behaving does not qualify as "polite".

Quote:

come to #gentoo-ops tomorrow if you want to talk again. until then, I bid you a good day.


I gave you this specific instruction, yet you didn't follow it. If you would have come to the channel, we could have solved the matter in minutes. Ranting about me behind my back, however, makes things only worse.

All of your posts here somehow imply that the whole issue is my fault, which it clearly is not. As a result of the four points I made above, the overall channel health was suffering, our volunteers were busy trying to meet elena's overdrawn expectations. They were frustrated and did not reply to other people's questions. Watching, controlling and even forcibly fixing the channel health is one of my jobs as a channel operator.
The minute after the mute was enabled, the channel started working properly again. This shows that I did my job well. Think about the other 799 users in the channel besides the OP, they were thankful.

Usually it is the banned user who explains himself, not the operator. The ops team controls itself from inside, we talk about bans to make sure that they are fair. That also happened this time. I think I made it pretty clear that the ban is fair and was needed, if you want to be fair to us operators, you should now expect the OP to do some explaining here, like he should have in the first place.

i92guboj: Thank you for reiterating the importance of understanding that all help is given voluntarily and for free. However, the #gentoo policy states that bans are only handled by the operator who set them, I think that I do not make unreasonable requests, so we don't need any mediating here.

Nathan: We usually do not discuss IRC issues via the Forums. #gentoo-ops or email are our the canonical ways of dealing with issues. Giving special treatment in this case wouldn't be right. Also, your comment overall shows that you think that the OP did nothing wrong. Up until now you only heard an unproven rant of an obviously agitated user, so please stick to the canonical ways of dealing with IRC issues, which is contacting the operators as stated above, and only after that the issue should be escalated to someone else.

-Alex

Edit: uppercase OP = original poster, not operator. might be mixed up here ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Why I'm sayin gentoo is not user friendly Reply with quote

a3li wrote:
i92guboj: Thank you for reiterating the importance of understanding that all help is given voluntarily and for free. However, the #gentoo policy states that bans are only handled by the operator who set them, I think that I do not make unreasonable requests, so we don't need any mediating here.


Sorry for the transgression. I am not familiar with the IRC policies, as you have already noted. I am sure that everything was handled in the best possible way. Whether the issue was due to a troll, to the lack of experience or due to language issues is the real question, I think.

Quote:
Nathan: We usually do not discuss IRC issues via the Forums. #gentoo-ops or email are our the canonical ways of dealing with issues. Giving special treatment in this case wouldn't be right. Also, your comment overall shows that you think that the OP did nothing wrong. Up until now you only heard an unproven rant of an obviously agitated user, so please stick to the canonical ways of dealing with IRC issues, which is contacting the operators as stated above, and only after that the issue should be escalated to someone else.


I agree with this so I will lock the thread, the IRC matters should be solved using their own ways. We have nothing to do with them and can't help on that. The original poster is welcome to use the forum for any support question and open as many new threads as necessary, as long as s/he acknowledges with all the forum rules and netiquette. There's no point in continuing on this one though.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: ..and you're even going on with that arrogance here. Reply with quote

Since the original thread https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-814805.html was locked I'm creating the new one.
I wouldn't answer if not this line

a3li
Quote:
if you want to be fair to us operators, you should now expect the OP to do some explaining here, like he should have in the first place.

i92guboj
Quote:
Whether the issue was due to a troll, to the lack of experience or due to language issues is the real question, I think.


I'm explaining myself from the point of casual user, which I'm really is.
from here http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=12

Quote:
12.b. Gentoo Online

You are of course always welcome on our Gentoo Forums or on one of our many Gentoo IRC channels.

We also have several mailing lists open to all our users. Information on how to join is contained in that page.

We'll shut up now and let you enjoy your installation. :)


You can not expect from casual user to know all the intricacies inside gentoo org how those different help venues are really structured.
I was following step-by-step instructions and choose to use irc channel instead of forums since it was easier to get at that point.

And yes I'm probably bad mannered troll which can not explain myself properly in English.

I forgot or deliberately didn't mentioned a lot of things from the initial irc chat, that's why i said "to make story short"
Alex asked me "who you think you are" ? - my answer is : casual user which doesn't know all subtle netiquette rules.
No more explanations of what happened on irc channel. It is not helpful to make it here on forums, I think.

"come to #gentoo-ops tomorrow if you want to talk again. until then, I bid you a good day."
I was in the middle of installation do you think it is very helpful to say come tomorrow ?
Yes I didn't follow that polite advice and opened my issue on the forum, sorry for that, my mistake.

Sorry for the trouble, wish you all well Gentoo !

P.S.
One little thing though, when gentoo devs calling users arrogant. Hm ...
That is reiterating my first post title somehow.
Again and again , my apologies.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: ..and you're even going on with that arrogance here. Reply with quote

goretz wrote:
You can not expect from casual user to know all the intricacies inside gentoo org how those different help venues are really structured.
We do not. That is why, in your original thread, several of us made repeated attempts to assist in that regard, by instructing you where to direct your complaint. To date, you have not done so.
Quote:
It is not helpful to make it here on forums, I think.
On this, we agree.
Quote:
Yes I didn't follow that polite advice and opened my issue on the forum, sorry for that, my mistake.
Mistakes are readily forgiven. Repeated and willful disregard of advice offered to correct a mistake is less tolerated.

Unless and until you are willing to take your concerns to the proper channels (ops@gentoo.org or #gentoo-ops on Freenode IRC), further discussion of this matter will be promptly moved to the original thread, which will remain locked.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merged above two posts here.
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