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iGuru
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:03 pm    Post subject: A question Reply with quote

Did someone of you install a Gentoo on ppc systems ?
I want to build up a desktop based on ppc from pegasos-like products and I was asking this to know if the combination ppc-Gentoo works.
Surfing the net I found the project www.maconlinux.org and I thought that can be cool installing Mac OS X under my Gentoo and have access to thousands of apps&games that are available for mac os. Looks like maconlinux is fast. Absurdly, you can run Virtual PC (a tool from Microsoft) to start a XP session ! So you can run 3 oses on one machine. It could be interesting if Microsoft makes, or helps in creation of a tool like maconlinux that can run a Windows session under linux. So the situation on the market will be:
A PC Linux based that runs on free software, at lower prices. Then who wants to have a Windows session opens it and works on it (always having Linux in background, so this is always SAFER).
If someone thinks that can work better with mac os, he can start up an osx session from Linux and begin to work.
Microsoft can have interest in this because they actually have market only on powerpc by apple and not on other machines.
This can be good for server lines too. Having a server (or a cluster) Linux based, but with the opportunity to bring up another os, you can give to the enterprise market a BIG number of services by combining Windows, Mac and Linux technologies.
This move gives the final user the freedom to buy or not an operating system like Mac OS X or Windows XP. The choice will be made based on the application needs. So big software houses can produce software based on a single operating system, the one that offers better development tools.
Linux can act as a free "firmware", that gives the free and open tools, including the tools to open windows and mac os sessions. If you need the other 2 oses you can buy the os and then use it if you need.
This can be an ideal open and free market.

Obviously this is just my opinion, what do you think ?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you didn't notice the "Gentoo on PPC" forum?


Moved from Other Things Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I didn't ! :oops:
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:36 pm    Post subject: If life were so good Reply with quote

Well there is a product for running windows programs on linux, it's called wine, and winex for running directx games. Not quite like VPC, as far I I understand wine, but it does the job. Winex is even available for PPC architecure, though I don't know quite how. Your suggested three way system would have to run on PPC architecture since Mac won't run on x86, but it might be possible. The main problem is that VPC is so slow (thiough I have't played around with 7 yet). Of course PPC architectue won't be a problem since the Xbox2 is going to be a dual G5. Anyway, you've probably read a lot of the Gentoo on PPC forum by now, but yes, I hvae quite happily installed Gentoo on my PB G4 and I run with a triple boot of Gentoo (kernel 2.6.9), OS X 10.3, and OS X 10.4 beta, both of which I can run from mol (MacOnLinux).

All the best :)
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Wine, I'm also trying the Codeweaver Crossover Office and for some apps it does the job. But with a tool like Virtual PC running under linux I think there'll be full compatibility ..
So you confirm me that Gentoo runs fine on G4 ? I don't know if it is best to try installing on a iBook or testing the Pegasos platform.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2004 11:54 pm    Post subject: the big go-ahead Reply with quote

I've considered running VPC from Mac from Linux, but I think the load might be a bit heavy. I unfortunately doubt that Microsoft will ever develop something like VPC for Linux.

Anyway, yes, Gentoo runs great on my PB G4. The only noticable shortcoming I've found is that so far there aren't ppc drivers for my ATI Mobility Radeon 9600 (or any faster cards).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Running VPC in a mol instance is useless, I think. M$ can take advantage from a VPC for Linux because it reaches the ppc market and allows everyone to make a free choice of wich OS to run. Am I wrong ?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 02, 2004 6:29 pm    Post subject: *giggles* Reply with quote

Hehehehehe hahaha, you said MS and free choice in the same sentence!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac-on-Linux (mol) for ppc: open-source, free and it works very well!

VMWare and others for PC: proprietary, not free and probably do not work so great.

Why no PC-on-Linux that would allow Windows and other OSes to run efficiently inside Linux/x86?

Maybe because the x86 architecture makes it quite difficult to do this "virtualization" efficiently whereas the ppc arch makes it easy or I should probably say easier. The fact that the OS X kernel and most of the system is open-source also helps I guess for the "open-source" aspect of Mol.

I'm not an expert, but from what I understand x86 allows apps running in usermode to access system registers of the CPU as read-only... On the PowerPC arch, you cannot read these system registers, it will raise a trap and then I guess there is some virtual machine glue code to handle the trap.

Then, I think that things such as VMWare must pre-scan the x86 code and use several non-trivial hacks to make all think work. If it needs to pre-scan the x86-code for some instructions, oh oh... The x86 do not have a fixed-size instruction length, some inst are 1, 2, ..., 8 bytes long... So I guess they would have to kind of "interpret" the x86 code.

NB: Experts, please correct me if it is all wrong. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iGuru wrote:
I know Wine, I'm also trying the Codeweaver Crossover Office and for some apps it does the job. But with a tool like Virtual PC running under linux I think there'll be full compatibility ..


Yes, full compatibility. If this becomes available, the Wine stuff will still have some speed advantage for I/O intensive stuff. For example, even if Mol does not emulate CPU and runs at native CPU speed, OS X do not have directly access to video hardware in Mol, forget about running 3D games.

With Wine I think performance is good enough for some games (they use Linux drivers... more directly). A second advantage with a Wine thing is that you don't need to run a full OS.

iGuru wrote:

So you confirm me that Gentoo runs fine on G4 ? I don't know if it is best to try installing on a iBook or testing the Pegasos platform.


Because of the small market, Pegasos hardware tends to be more expensive than Mac hardware. Apples G4's decreased over time whereas the Pegasos stays about the same price...

But if you buy a Pegasos, you will stay out of PC vs Mac fights because you will have neither. :)

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