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Larry The Cow
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarrenM wrote:


The idea that qwerty designed to slow typists down is a legend. If you read that article you will see that it wasn't designed so much to slow the typists down, but to move common key combinations to alternate sides of the keyboard to prevent jamming. Jamming in a typewriter occurs when 2 hammers that are close together are pressed at the same time.

This change gives qwerty an advantage over dvorak that evens out any performance claim. While dvorak may gain speed by having common letters closer to the home keys, qwerty gains from having your hands alternate more while typing. Most proper studies that get done show no advantage to either layout. The original myth that dvorak was faster was created by dvorak himself.

http://reason.com/9606/Fe.QWERTY.shtml
http://wwwpub.utdallas.edu/~liebowit/keys1.html
http://www.chicagologic.com/QWERTYrumor.htm


I have to agree that it is more likely than not that qwerty was not designed specifically to slow typing, but rather in a way that would slow typing. Qwerty was designed with the intention of keeping typewriters from jamming, Dvorak was designed to make typing faster; to claim that they are equal in efficiency is rather absurd.

http://members.networld.com/dvorak/Dvorak_vs_qwerty_keyboard_tests.htm
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal/dvorak_advice.html
http://dvorak.i-rox.com/
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

freeix wrote:
christsong84 wrote:
NotQuiteSane wrote:
Dvorak is better. faster, perhaps not. but it is both easier to learn, and easier on my hands. sure i only do about 10 WPM in dvorak, but I've never had any training, and with qwerty, I have to use the biblical method

NQS

Better is a subjective term..

Which is why he went on to explain /why/ he thinks it is better.
where I also mentioned the fact that easier to learn also differs from person to person *cough*

Quote:

Quote:
I take neither side but just hope to calm a flamefest before it gets too out of hand :P

Right...


you of coruse sir are welcome to your opinion...I've stated what I will :) no hard feelings.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

christsong84 wrote:
where I also mentioned the fact that easier to learn also differs from person to person *cough*

It may be within the realm of possibility for someone to have an easier time learning qwerty than dvorak. However, I have never heard of such a thing and pretty much /all/ the evidence points towards dvorak being easier to learn.

So as far as I know, your "fact" is completely unsupported by evidence. I seriously doubt you will be able to find any proof of there being a statistically significant number of people who had an easier time learning qwerty.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

j-m wrote:
freeix wrote:

Quite the contrary. It has been empirically verified that Dvorak is easier to learn. It is one of Dvorak's most notable advantages and clearly deserves mention.

Yes, I have empirically learnt that Dvorak suxxx big time for things like CRTL+C, CTRL+V, CTRL+] etc. etc. :x

I think we completely agree on that point. Dvorak was designed with ease of typing in mind, not compatibility with hotkeys tailored for qwerty.

I have heard of tricks to get a dvorak layout to switch to qwerty on-the-fly, whenever the CTRL key is pressed. But this is not "standard" enough for me... I do not want to have to set that up on every computer I use, so I stick to qwerty.

Quick and easy hotkeys are more important to me than an extra ~20WPM ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

freeix wrote:
christsong84 wrote:
where I also mentioned the fact that easier to learn also differs from person to person *cough*

It may be within the realm of possibility for someone to have an easier time learning qwerty than dvorak. However, I have never heard of such a thing and pretty much /all/ the evidence points towards dvorak being easier to learn.

So as far as I know, your "fact" is completely unsupported by evidence. I seriously doubt you will be able to find any proof of there being a statistically significant number of people who had an easier time learning qwerty.


my "fact" wasn't specifically pointed at learning qwerty but moreso of the well known and taught idea that people learn things differently and because people are different, often they have an easier time with one thing than another which differs from person to person. I honestly don't care which is better (I'll work with either *shrugs*)...my original post was meant more as a caution of using certain things that can be seen as subjective as arguments.

If you'd like to continue this debate, I suggest we move to pm's as it's not really relevant to the topic (and I apologize to the original poster for the tangent).

~CS84
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

christsong84 wrote:
my "fact" wasn't specifically pointed at learning qwerty but moreso of the well known and taught idea that people learn things differently and because people are different, often they have an easier time with one thing than another which differs from person to person. I honestly don't care which is better (I'll work with either *shrugs*)...my original post was meant more as a caution of using certain things that can be seen as subjective as arguments.

Sorry, but there is nothing subjective about the well-known fact that dvorak is easier to learn.
Quote:
If you'd like to continue this debate, I suggest we move to pm's as it's not really relevant to the topic (and I apologize to the original poster for the tangent).

There is nothing more to be said, unless you wish to admit your error in thinking that "dvorak is easier to learn" is a subjective argument.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:09 am    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

j-m wrote:
Yes, I have empirically learnt that Dvorak suxxx big time for things like CRTL+C, CTRL+V, CTRL+] etc. etc. :x


I found out that a combination of a classical unix layout and dvorak is pretty well. That means, ctrl and caps are switched. So you can easily access the ctrl-key and any combination of it (yes it is even on your home-row now).

I'm typing dvorak for 1,5 years now, but I'm not that much faster. I would say I'm quite as fast as on qwertz (kraut's layout ;-) and also with 10-finger-typing), but with dvorak I don't type so many errors and my arms aren't arching any more. Furthermore I don't look on the keyboard, as I never swapped the caps on it. That's really nice as I can stare on the screen the whole time while I'm typing. And to all machines I have access to provide a dvorak layout, even on IRIX and NeXTstep! 8-)
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using dvorak for 4 years now. IMHO its much better than qwerty the only complaint I have is with is grub ect where I have to revert to the archaic qwerty!! The best thing about dvorak is how natural it feels and how quickly you pick it up!! Plus its easy to mentally switch back and forth when needed!!


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ctt
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Faster, more efficient typing Reply with quote

BlindSpy wrote:
Switching over to the Dvorak keyboard layout (and learning it) is a great way to become an extremely fast typer....
Here's an interesting read on the subject: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_248.html . May want to take a look before you paint over your keys.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dvorak Thread always remind me of this little book I read a while ago.
It was titled "How to lie with statistics" and has a few examples how to
apply statistics to prove your point.

Concerning Dvorak vs. Qwerty there are lots of factors to consider before
a statistic plays any significant role. If you know Qwerty and use lots of
computers with that layout where you can not control the layout and use
apps with Hotkeys for Qwerty there is simply no reason to switch.
If you start from scratch and no none of the layouts and work only on your computer
you might consider dvorak but most likely people like that don't know it exists.
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mirko_3
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To use dvorak in grub, paste this in your grub.conf (or menu.lst):
Code:

################
# GRUB qwerty->dvorak keymap v1.0 - Matthew Mueller <donut@azstarnet.com>
# latest ver @ http://www.azstarnet.com/~donut/programs/
# paste this in the top of your menu.lst (above any menu items)

# row 1
#setkey backquote backquote
#number keys...
setkey bracketleft minus
setkey braceleft underscore
setkey bracketright equal
setkey braceright plus
#setkey backslash backslash

# row 2
setkey quote q
setkey doublequote Q
setkey comma w
setkey less W
setkey period e
setkey greater E
setkey p r
setkey P R
setkey y t
setkey Y T
setkey f y
setkey F Y
setkey g u
setkey G U
setkey c i
setkey C I
setkey r o
setkey R O
setkey l p
setkey L P
setkey slash bracketleft
setkey question braceleft
setkey equal bracketright
setkey plus braceright

# row 3
#setkey a a
setkey o s
setkey O S
setkey e d
setkey E D
setkey u f
setkey U F
setkey i g
setkey I G
setkey d h
setkey D H
setkey h j
setkey H J
setkey t k
setkey T K
setkey n l
setkey N L
setkey s semicolon
setkey S colon
setkey minus quote
setkey underscore doublequote

# row 4
setkey semicolon z
setkey colon Z
setkey q x
setkey Q X
setkey j c
setkey J C
setkey k v
setkey K V
setkey x b
setkey X B
setkey b n
setkey B N
#setkey m m
setkey w comma
setkey W less
setkey v period
setkey V greater
setkey z slash
setkey Z question
#########################


Oohps, bit long of a post...
Anyway, I tried it and it works fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To add a question to the "learn faster" portion of the debate:

I believe the only way to test this would be to have a significant population of individuals who have never used a keyboard prior to learning the Dvorak method. I did a bit of Googling (probably not enough) but was unable to find any evidence of a study that included such trials. Maybe someone can provide a link?

Also, the benefit of the Dvorak method is probably less speed (though it appears several people realize a significant increase...while yet others do not), and more ergonomic. The fingers do less reaching and stretching, and the probability of an injury is likely reduced.

We all have to work within our own limitations/means/environments...this can mean many things...and dvorak may not fit.
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wing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

haha it's funny this topic comes up, about a year ago I decided to switch layouts cold-turkey from qwerty to dvorak, it was a total :x for a month or so, but after that I was, and still am proficient in both layouts, though personally I do like dvorak a lot better. From the instant I started the decreased hand movement made a huge difference for those long days at the keyboard. Beware though, around the 3rd week of learning it, you get to this mode where you try to type in both dvorak and qwerty, and you suck at both of them. If you're persistant though, you'll come out of it knowing both languages, and also you'll make it extremely difficult for friends to try and gess your password :twisted:
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

undrwater wrote:

I believe the only way to test this would be to have a significant population of individuals who have never used a keyboard prior to learning the Dvorak method. I did a bit of Googling (probably not enough) but was unable to find any evidence of a study that included such trials. Maybe someone can provide a link?


http://dvzine.org

Read their webcomic... very telling!

Also, to the guy who wanted to switch but relies too much on vim, I know how that goes! That was what made me reluctant at first. That's why I remapped command mode to QWERTY:

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-225426.html

I haven't tested the script extensively, but it sure seems to take care of the basics!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2005 4:17 am    Post subject: Ease of learning, etc. Reply with quote

First, I will readily admit that I have never tried out a dvorak keyboard, that said here are a couple observations on the qwerty design:

1) Dvorak ease of learning: I am sure that pleanty of people have tried out dvorak and found it surprisingly easy to learn, at least much easier than they remember learning to type on a qwerty keyboard. However, I would immagine that this is precicely why they had such an easy time learning the new layout: they already knew how to type. I would immagine that there would be little or no difference in learning curve to someone who has never touched a keyboard before in their life. Chances are, however, that most people who have decided to try out a dvorak keyboard are coming to it from qwerty - virtually no one would decide to learn touch typing for the first time and just happen to select this oscure layout.

2) The idea that qwerty was designed to slow typists down is a myth. It was designed to avoid jamming which could occur when two keys side by side were struck in quick succession. The two hammers must strike the same point, the center of the carrage. Since the hammers are arranged in an arch moving two and from the center, the greater the angle between them the less time they will overlap. Therefore, the idea was to place letters which are commonly grouped together in the english language further appart horizontally. The positive side effect of this layout is that is still a great advantage is that it tends to alternate between hands which allows you to be pressing one key with a left hand finger while a right hand finger is moving to press another at the same time. Consider, for instance, that whenever 'Q' appears in an english word, it is always followed by 'U'. 'Q' is pressed with your left hand while 'U' is pressed with your right.

3) Another advantage is that the qwerty layout was designed for a mechanical system which required significant force to be applied to the keys. Ok, this doesn't apply now, so why is this an advantage? Because the more commonly used letters are arranged so that they can be pressed by stronger fingers - that is while 'E' is a middle finger letter and 'Q' is a little finger letter. Though it is no longer necessary to provide enough force to drive a mechanical linkage and slam a metal hammer into a ribbon with enough velocity to print a letter, it still is nice that it requires less use of the finger which has less reach and, at least for me, less precision. I find on guitar, for instance, that chords involving my little finger are more difficult to manage.

Finger speed is another factor here. Try this: place either hand on a flat surface. Now, leaving all other fingers down, count how many times you can tap your index finger in a given time period, say 30 seconds or so. Now repeat for your little finger. Your little finger is much slower isn't it? Having it in charge of the less frequently used keys is still a great advantage even though the amount of muscle power needed to operate your keyboard is negligable.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

j-m wrote:
freeix wrote:

Quite the contrary. It has been empirically verified that Dvorak is easier to learn. It is one of Dvorak's most notable advantages and clearly deserves mention.


Yes, I have empirically learnt that Dvorak suxxx big time for things like CRTL+C, CTRL+V, CTRL+] etc. etc. :x


Well, you could buy a Typematrix Ez-Reach 2030. It has function keys for Ctrl+c, v, x close to where they use to be in Qwerty.

However, naming typematrix without telling more about that great keyboard would be a shame. Typematrix has its keys aligned in straight columns, which makes it easier to type on without looking at the keys. Perhaps one can learn to do that on a regular keyboard. Myself I have trieid to do that in querty, but I faild, as B and Y are to hard to reach. Another nice feature of Typematrix is that Return and Back Space are placed in the middle, so that one does not has to stretch for them. The keyboard also have a integrated numpad, thats thanks to the straight columns works lots better than the integrated ones on laptops. Since the numpad is integrated, people who have the mouse right of the keyboard doesn't has to reach that far to catch the mouse.

Enoght propaganda. :D

The worst thing I can think about it is the price. It did cost me 1364 SEK, today that is 143,31 EUR or 174,54 USD. But that is not that bad for an exelent keyboard that you'll use for many years. (untill you buy a kinesis for twice as much money :) )
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:20 pm    Post subject: QWERTY VS Dvorak Reply with quote

I'm afraid I've not learned to type. My Miss Mavis disk sit alone not running on linux.

Dvorak is faster. Isa w areport on it. There was a gal, who was capable of 210 wpm on a word processor and baout 160wpm on an electric typewriter.

The history was that the man, who invented the tyepwriter wanted to slow down typing.

The reporter made the observation that a typical qwerty typist moves his hands 25 miles per day, while the dvorak was 1.5 mile per day.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps just an urban legend, but I heard that qwerty started with the word "typewriter" on the top line for sales purposes and went from there. A salesman in the early 1800s could demonstrate how fast one could type by hammering out "typewriter" in record time, but it is buried well enough that it isn't that obvious.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Fainthearted Reply with quote

j-m wrote:
freeix wrote:

Quite the contrary. It has been empirically verified that Dvorak is easier to learn. It is one of Dvorak's most notable advantages and clearly deserves mention.


Yes, I have empirically learnt that Dvorak suxxx big time for things like CRTL+C, CTRL+V, CTRL+] etc. etc. :x


I had the same issues, and as such halted laerning it.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For editing, I just use CTRL-INS instead of CTRL-C, CTRL-DEL instead of CTRL-X and SHIFT-INS instead of CTRL-V. That way, it's the same on both dvorak and qwerty, plus, I find these key combinations easier anyway.

I started using dvorak about 8 months ago thanks this thread. I still use it now and would not switch back. :)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love it!! I even went so far as spraypainting my keyboard so when I'm tempted to look at it, my cheating is thwarted. :D The only thing is, I never knew how to touch type using QWERTY, so I'm still adjusting to the FJ ridges (oops, I mean the UH ridges :lol: ) and the like.
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