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RuiP
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DoctorWack wrote:
... and are very handy in the instances where i do something to mess up my gentoo install, which happens frequently.


I found a lot of posts where people says that they mess they gentoo frequently. Usually after an 'emerge -u world' or a gcc update. How often this things happen? I'm new with gentoo... but i don't want a OS that is delicate to the point of having a "messed SO" every 2 month or so...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that people don't understand etc-update. And yes, it is one of gentoo's few weak points...
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I decided to invest the time into getting Ubuntu working, and I am glad I did. I am suffciently impressed right now. There is a lot of "it just works", but instead of the redhat/Fedora model where it feels and acts a tad bloated, Ubuntu is damn snappy. I can't decide if it is better than gentoo though.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i dunno about the whole vs thing, down to the whole matter of taste. On the upside it supports things like usb flash memory thingies out of the box and some wireless card my friends laptop has that wasn't under FC

ultimately i think the best thing about distros is also the worst thing....eg
FC's great, you have lots of preconfigured packages and alot of stuff works...on the down side, it has a lot f preconfigured packages that you don't want

Gentoo's great, you get to compile things into your system exactly how you want... but you have to compile it

not saying anything's brilliant or crap here and maybe you don't agree with my examples, but i'm just using the as examples
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomatos, tomatoes....
I was surprised at how much cleaner Ubuntu was compared to vidalinux, and it's not like I had much trouble with my gentoo installs (well, not after I realized I can just install from knoppix ;) ), Ubuntu just seems so nice and easy... :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried Ubuntu (warthog and hedge-something)

If you are a Gnome fan, and want a solid OS ubuntu is a good choice.

Cons:

- It's not gentoo :) (there is no OS like gentoo);

- You cant say you did a stage 1 install;

- Packages are old (Firefox 0.8 for example)

- There is no way of uninstalling apps (all apps are marked as important)
So if you dont need ppp for example there is no way of uninstalling it;
I wanted to update Firefox to version 1.0. There is no way of doing this via ubuntu apt-get. I managed to install Firefox via webinstaller and let it live with ubuntu firefox (dirty hack);

- Its not 100% debian so using debian apt source can also f* things up.

- I like to have a choice/freedom, with Ubuntu you dont have a choice.

- Its gnome only.

Pro's:
- Easy to install (no bootstrapping required :D )
- They seem to have a good community (not 100% sure though)
- Its solid and stable.

If its for your sister -> go for it
If its for you -> stick with gentoo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zuti wrote:
- Packages are old (Firefox 0.8 for example)

- There is no way of uninstalling apps (all apps are marked as important)
So if you dont need ppp for example there is no way of uninstalling it;
I wanted to update Firefox to version 1.0. There is no way of doing this via ubuntu apt-get. I managed to install Firefox via webinstaller and let it live with ubuntu firefox (dirty hack);


If you update your apt-get sources list from this website then the old version of FF that is installed will update via the apt-get mechanism. Really sweet, I didn't think I would be able to get it to do that.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive just spent the last couple of days testing other distros for my laptop. Before I did that though, I made a backup of the complete harddrive.

I checked out Suse9.2, Simply Mepis, Ubuntu, Fedora Core 3, Yoper and Vidalinux.

In my opinion, when it comes to laptop hardware support (e.g. works out of the box), Suse seems to be in the lead. Fedora Core seemed very polished and nice, but Ubuntu had more stuff working out of the box, and Ubuntu had a nice wiki and user forums. And Ubuntu, seemed to have more stuff work out of the box than Fedora. The fedora core homepage leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to documentation.
Or maybe I was just too stupid to find it.
One thing that annoyed me about Suse was how long the Yast component always took to load.

But once all was done, I started to feel the need for gentoo again. "Works out of the box" is only good if it really works out of the box, for everything. Which didnt happen with any distro. To be fair though, I have a really screwy laptop. Gericom, 'nuff said! I mean if I have to tinker anyway to get stuff working, I'd rather do it in gentoo. After all, its optimised for tinkering! :D

Gentoo p3wnzers the other Distro's asses! :wink:
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malloc
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry to disagree with you but i only see two valid arguments there...
Quote:

- It's not gentoo :) (there is no OS like gentoo);

- You cant say you did a stage 1 install;

These i totally agree with you. But then again if someone uses these arguments as a basis to make any kind of choice...well...

Quote:

- Packages are old (Firefox 0.8 for example)

This is plain wrong.

Quote:

- There is no way of uninstalling apps (all apps are marked as important)
So if you dont need ppp for example there is no way of uninstalling it;
I wanted to update Firefox to version 1.0. There is no way of doing this via ubuntu apt-get. I managed to install Firefox via webinstaller and let it live with ubuntu firefox (dirty hack);

This one is also extremely wrong. I uninstalled ppp, pppoe and pppd right from the install, so you better get your facts right.

Quote:

- I like to have a choice/freedom, with Ubuntu you dont have a choice.

- Its gnome only.

This is not only wrong but i think insulting to the ubuntu devs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zuti wrote:
- You cant say you did a stage 1 install;

:roll:
Zuti wrote:
- Easy to install (no bootstrapping required : D )

Since when did bootstrapping become required? Your post is also an insult to the thousands of gentoo users who have done Stage 3 installs, or seen fit to folllow something akin to the Stage1 on Stage3 guide, which is not so much bootstrapping as it is a suggestied regime of optimizing the packages you feel like optimizing in a reasonable fashion.

Really, dude, get a clue.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

artificio wrote:
Tomatos, tomatoes....
I was surprised at how much cleaner Ubuntu was compared to vidalinux, and it's not like I had much trouble with my gentoo installs (well, not after I realized I can just install from knoppix ;) ), Ubuntu just seems so nice and easy... :)


What do you mean by "cleaner" ?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel it's proper to elaborate a bit on what malloc said, as there may be other confused people watching this thread who think the same things as Zuti.

malloc wrote:
Quote:
- Packages are old (Firefox 0.8 for example)

This is plain wrong.

It is wrong. The default package repositories are for the stable Warty release, which means that they lag behind the releases marked as "stable" by their respective developers. If you read the configuration file (/etc/apt/sources.list), follow the directions on the wiki, or view the "Repositories" option screen in Synaptic, you will see that there are several "unstable" package sources which are commented/unchecked. Simply activating these yields access to more recent software releases, and also "voids the warantee," so to speak (i.e. no more free support from Ubuntu developers).

Here the Ubuntu/Debian design is a bit different from Gentoo's, in that there are multiple repositories that you can choose from to get packages. You start out with the equivalent to portage, but by default it includes many fewer packages because the inclusion policy is so strict, like with the default of ACCEPT_KEYWORDS="x86". Changing this to "~x86" or maintaining 3rd-party ebuilds in your portage overlay is akin to adding more repositories to your apt configuration.

malloc wrote:
Quote:
- There is no way of uninstalling apps (all apps are marked as important)
So if you dont need ppp for example there is no way of uninstalling it;
I wanted to update Firefox to version 1.0. There is no way of doing this via ubuntu apt-get. I managed to install Firefox via webinstaller and let it live with ubuntu firefox (dirty hack);

This one is also extremely wrong. I uninstalled ppp, pppoe and pppd right from the install, so you better get your facts right.

I believe I see the misconception. There is an "ubuntu-desktop" meta-package which is installed by default and depends on every single package that is installed by default. If you try to remove any of those packages, it warns that it will remove the "ubuntu-desktop" package as well. Removing this package does nothing, which you would find out if you read the wiki or search their forum.

malloc wrote:
Quote:
- I like to have a choice/freedom, with Ubuntu you dont have a choice.

- Its gnome only.

This is not only wrong but i think insulting to the ubuntu devs.

I reported earlier in this thread already that installing KDE, fluxbox, ion2, and other window managers works well and is without side-effect.

Remember that installing Gentoo forces you to read a manual at least once, which is why you know how to exploit its features so well. It is a good rule of thumb to say that a solution is not obvious to you than to say that it is not possible, especially when talking about a Linux distribution. Ubuntu is pretty intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's simple.

I noticed this post after I finished mine, but I'm not one to double-post:

MdaG wrote:
artificio wrote:
Tomatos, tomatoes....
I was surprised at how much cleaner Ubuntu was compared to vidalinux, and it's not like I had much trouble with my gentoo installs (well, not after I realized I can just install from knoppix ;) ), Ubuntu just seems so nice and easy... :)

What do you mean by "cleaner" ?

I imagine many people on this forum might consider "cleaner" to mean that the system starts off in a clean, minimal state. In this context, however, since Ubuntu is definitely not "clean" in this sense, I believe artificio means that by default the Ubuntu desktop is uncluttered, simple, and not overwhelming. There are few menu items, but most administration tasks can be accessed intuitively through them. That is the kind of "clean" I think they mean.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious about VidaLinux. Is VidaLinux cluttered then? Since I already do stage 3 installs I might as well install VidaLinux. Is it Gentoo with a GUI installer or is there something else I need to know (I know about Porthole). I want Gentoo minus the long install time. It takes me 12h to get I full working desktop with a stage 3 right now (including config of WM and such). That's way to much time for me.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried GRP? I doubt that would take 12 hours...

VidaLinux looks cool but I'm waiting for it to mature, Knoppix gives me a quick fix when I need it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use gentoo on all my computers. I do it because i feel really comfortable with it, and installing a full operative environment takes me only one afternoon (i use grp). But I never install gentoo to a linux starter (most of my friends), and I believe i don't have to explain my reasons.

There's just one main variable to discuss... TIME

The most time you stay with gentoo, the more you system fits your needs. Brand new hardware, exotic architectures, bleeding edge technologies... This is just because is a source-based distribution. All its pros and cons are explained with this.

My point is that IMO is not appropiate to compare a source based distro with a package-based one. I think that a good linux administrator should be familiar with both.

Gentoo is a great distribution, but in some cases it's just a waste of time. Those cases are the covered with packaged-based distros. You use gentoo when you need gentoo. I needed gentoo to learn the GNU/linux internals and system tuning. I need gentoo because as it is source-based, is a more suitable development environment.

There are not pros and cons between ubuntu and gentoo. There are differences. Gentoo and Ubuntu are not in the same battlefield. Ubuntu is competing with SuSE, Fedora, Debian... not with gentoo. When you switch to ubuntu, it's not because you are switching to this particular distro, it's because you don't need to build and customize everything nearly from scratch. I got this discussion every week at my work, most of my collegues use debian.

To build or not to build, that is the question :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love gentoo (and debian for that matter) for their repo's, and that when you install you do a really really bare bone one, where you add just what you want. I hate those bloated distros that install everything from 10 different wm's.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zuti wrote:
I tried Ubuntu (warthog and hedge-something)

If you are a Gnome fan, and want a solid OS ubuntu is a good choice.

Cons:

- It's not gentoo :) (there is no OS like gentoo);

- You cant say you did a stage 1 install;

- Packages are old (Firefox 0.8 for example)

- There is no way of uninstalling apps (all apps are marked as important)
So if you dont need ppp for example there is no way of uninstalling it;
I wanted to update Firefox to version 1.0. There is no way of doing this via ubuntu apt-get. I managed to install Firefox via webinstaller and let it live with ubuntu firefox (dirty hack);

- Its not 100% debian so using debian apt source can also f* things up.

- I like to have a choice/freedom, with Ubuntu you dont have a choice.

- Its gnome only.

Pro's:
- Easy to install (no bootstrapping required :D )
- They seem to have a good community (not 100% sure though)
- Its solid and stable.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
i'm still laugh at this!!
c'mon, do you believe that?
do you really ever try warty (full names are Warty Warthog and Hoary Hedgehog)?
I suppose that you try emerge -C ppp endless times... and never work!
Usually people do 'apt-get remove ppp' or 'apt-get --purge remove ppp' if they want to remove any configuration file left.
emerge leaves the config files beyond, so when you delete something broken and do a new emerge, if errors are at config files you get those again!
Besides, try this, emerge xfce-extra/terminal. It's an excellent terminal, better then gnome's. It will emerge exo too, a xfce library. Terminal need it for work. Now do emerge -C edo. It DELETES edo! That what i call flexibillity and freedom of choice. You can choose to have a broken package with some dependencies unistalled!
I emerge xfce4 and it starts to install libxfcegui4, the main library for xfce, and a lot of other packages.
Xfce4 never work good. Most of is applets didn't work... I decided to use the original installers from os-cillation, emerge -C libxfcegui4 just deleted that 1 thing. -C xfce4 leaves a lot of stuff on disk. For my freedom of choice to manually delete them, i suppose...
Under those distro that don't uninstall (there isn't the concept of impotant app under ubuntu as there isn't the concept of universe or unstable under gentoo) apt-get remove libxfce... will splash the question, delete this will
delete too... and list what of (without freedom) will be delete. Arhhgg.

Firefox version on release date was 0.9 (with security patches).
Of course these is not gentoo so they not have 1.0 on the CD. How old are the packages? Ubuntu released on 20 Oct. Firefox 1.0 on 9 Nov. Now, there must be a flag on emerge to get apps from the next month emerge -future firefox will compile the great Firefox 1.9999. Of course that command will do nothing on my gentoo but i apt-get Firefox 1.0 as hundreds of others. We had no choice.
Now you can add, ok cinic one then why the don't release RC1. Thats a point. This deb was on repositoire till the last days before release, then was removed because several people found a bug that frooze fox when it ownloads under certain circumptances. They prefer to release with a 0.9 patched and no bug. My self, i choose a stable little old then a buggy high new. But you can always choose to use firefoxs site final version.
Why you say its a dirty hack? They made it! Millions of people download that version... Oh I see, coourse.
Dirty because it was not compile with emerge... Ok.

And what about stage1 and bootstrap. Can you demonstrate that your firefox or any aplicattion compiled under your compiled bootstrap/stage1 system is better in any special way then the ones compiled under ubuntu computers or any other distro computers, they use gcc didn't they? i wonder where they get they compilers, must came back binarie with they servers. Any way, they gcc don't compile as better, not even close, then a gentoo bootstraped gcc.
Some gentoo users type:
scripts/bootstrap.sh
emerge system
and then they became so superior. (But they can even type man apt, outside Gentoo)

And what about choice and freedom. How do you get those. I almost try emerge -u freedom, (-u assuming that even as an ubuntu user i had a least a little of that, but probabily mine will be heavilly masked).
Here 2 examples of Gentoo Flexibility and Choice. 1)
sudo gedit /etc/profile -> don't work. X aplicattion are not launched with sudo.
su -c gedit /etc/profile -> lauch gedit but opens a new file.
(i read posts, some people wondering why. Someone suggest a thing call sux. Stupid name, but let's try)
sux gedit /etc/profile -> unknown id: gedit
man sux -> no manual entry. (I started to think who was the man that sux..)
sux --help -> password: (what, ok) type my user password. Got bash help.
emerge -C sux.
Try another.
gksudo gedit /etc/profile -> \uffffqKX\uffffqK\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffff\uffffGtk-WARNING **: cannot open display.
I have a lot of choices (This Is a Basic Command!) but they are offer by gnu or gnome, and gentoo didn't seem to implement those right. I was left with the freedom of su me, type for an editor, edit, and type exit to go back. Free.
If by mistake i forgot to type exit and type something dangerous i'm there with roots previlege. I want sudo. And i want a easier editor then
nano for big files. Why gentoo don't allow me that little?
2) I do a simple emerge openoffice-ximian. Go to bed. Next morning OpenOffice was ready. OK.
Tryed... starts. Files->Open, opens. Ok. Log out. Log In as my wife. Portuguese environment.
Tryed... starts. Files->Open, opens. BUT, WHAT!! Under any distro i used (i think they are now more then 10) i have
Ficheiros->Abrir. Where is the portuguese?
Read posts. I should have guess by some inspiration that i should have done
LANGUAGE=33 emerge open... (I even bootstrap, i'm a stage 1 guy, why I was not iluminated?). I tried next night.
Now my wife can have his openoffice in portuguese. BUT me too. No matter witch language i choose, naw office is always on portuguese. NEVER a multi-language version. Thats Freedom. Image an Office with people with
several languages. Lets teach those little foreigners bastards to learn A Language. (If possible en_US, I suppose...) They must be free of that irritating little habit of speaking they native languages.
Congratulations. This is the only one distro i get with this fine behave.

ChojinDSL wrote:
Gentoo p3wnzers the other Distro's asses! :wink:

I never realize that any distro add asses!
Did I emerge ass on some step? I don't remember... That should explain then dirty behavier, and the sudden bad smell.
And i'm beginning to think to quick the gentoo's ass out of my computers, it will need then.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M0M0 wrote:
There are not pros and cons between ubuntu and gentoo. There are differences. Gentoo and Ubuntu are not in the same battlefield. Ubuntu is competing with SuSE, Fedora, Debian... not with gentoo. When you switch to ubuntu, it's not because you are switching to this particular distro, it's because you don't need to build and customize everything nearly from scratch. I got this discussion every week at my work, most of my collegues use debian.

To build or not to build, that is the question :wink:

You've pointed out the central difference between Gentoo and Ubuntu. But you failed to mention the central similarity, which is that they both have the potential to be "optimized" (or whatever that really means) .
titan100 wrote:
I love gentoo (and debian for that matter) for their repo's, and that when you install you do a really really bare bone one, where you add just what you want. I hate those
bloated distros that install everything from 10 different wm's.

That is another difference between Gentoo and Ubuntu, though it's not directly relevant to what Gentoo and Ubuntu have in common because someone who cares about having an "optimized" distro probably needs the "bloat" that is X.org and probably doesn't care about the hard drive space used by having gnome preinstalled... (not that I know whether Ubuntu *forces* you to install gnome up front.)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:D Good points, RuiP. Now have a look at $CONFIG_PROTECT, emerge depclean and revdep-rebuild.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:18 am    Post subject: My Ubuntu Experience... Reply with quote

I tried Ubuntu (had a bunch of cds shipped and left most of them in my school's CSCI lab for distribution.)

Although I found it to be very snappy and very much enjoyed things such as a beautiful login manager, sounds at boot, and a snazzy gnome desktop, I ultimately went back to Gentoo. Here's why: it didn't seem like it could compare to portage!

All I have to do on gentoo is type "emerge drscheme" and I have the programming environment I need for my CSCI class. While it isn't really much more difficult to go onto the website and install the software manually, it's damn convenient to just type it into the console and have my computer install it for me. And as an added bonus, the software is optimized for my system!

Apt-get seemed nice, but it just doesn't seem as extensive as portage. Perhaps I'm mistaken - please correct me if I'm wrong! There were many nice things about Ubuntu and if apt is just as large as portage then I'd be hard pressed to make a decision either way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://packages.debian.org/testing/interpreters/drscheme

You just need to set up the right repositories for Ubuntu, I doubt there's much in portage that's not available as a *.deb.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:30 am    Post subject: Wow. Reply with quote

That's really, really, nice.

I'm going to have to think hard now! Gentoo is really nice, but Ubuntu is probably a lot better for my poor laptop, which has done about 15 stage-1 installs (not all of them complete, but still - that's a lot of hard work!)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's an easy solution to that, you know: don't do Stage1 installs on slow machines

it is pointless epenis shit
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: What about... Reply with quote

...how about gameplay on Ubuntu? Isn't an optimized Gentoo environment ideal for gaming? I have an ATI card, so isn't it an advantage to be able to get the latest ati-drivers, even if they're not released in stable form?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

freeix wrote:

it is pointless epenis shit


Hahah! That's a great term. You're totally right, too. But it's an enjoyable way to spend my time (since I have a lot at the moment!)

Perhaps I should try "emerge girlfriend"
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