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SnEptUne
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:27 am    Post subject: Ubuntu vs Gentoo Reply with quote

Hi,

I have been using Gentoo for over a year. So far, it does what it claims to do. However, I heard that a lot of users from Gentoo are moving to Ubuntu, which is a binary based distrobution. So what are the strengths of ubuntu. Does it worth it if I install it on my sister's computer? Any inputs are welcome.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO you can never install enough other distros. Each one I've tried has given me a different perspective or insight into linux. Having said that I've not tried Ubuntu.

If you do give it a shot (and what have you got to lose anyhow?) let us know how you think it compares...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried Ubuntu. It didn't work for me, but I'm on a straight Debian Sarge system now. It works very well. I have absolutely no complaints.

apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm right now in the process of replacing one of my gentoo installs with ubuntu, so you might have guessed it, I'm quite taken by ubuntu.

First of, when comparing gentoo and ubuntu you should keep in mind that these distros pursue very different goals imho. While ubuntu tries to give you a stable distribution that just works out of the box, gentoo is an extremely flexible, always very up to date meta-distribution.

But, and that's probably what I especially like about ubuntu, though it gives you a stable base you still get the opportunity to tinker with your install a lot, as ubuntu is based on debian and has a great package management system and a vast software repository because of that.

So if you are willing to sacrifice some of the flexibility and uptodateness of gentoo for a distro that basicly just works but still let's you do a lot of things, I think ubuntu is a great choice.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ralph wrote:
uptodateness of gentoo

Ubuntu synchronises its releases with that of the Gnome project (that's why Canonical hired Jeff Waugh, the current Gnome Release Manager). For Gnome users at least, Ubuntu is the one to bet on as far as up-to-dateness is concerned.

They're also ahead of Gentoo in areas such as Project Utopia integration (e.g. there isn't even an ebuild for pmount yet).
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Syntaxis wrote:
ralph wrote:
uptodateness of gentoo

Ubuntu synchronises its releases with that of the Gnome project (that's why Canonical hired Jeff Waugh, the current Gnome Release Manager). For Gnome users at least, Ubuntu is the one to bet on as far as up-to-dateness is concerned.

They're also ahead of Gentoo in areas such as Project Utopia integration (e.g. there isn't even an ebuild for pmount yet).

Ehm, I'm aware of that, I just think you understood me wrong.
What I meant is that Ubuntu is providing a stable release every six month (and this stable release is very up to date), but after it's released it only gets security updates and bugfixes (which is of course a good thing, as it ensures you have a stable system)

You can of course track the development release (hoary at the moment) and this will actually be more up to date than gentoo in many areas. You'll get to play around with gnome-2.9 for example.

Finally, about pmount, afaik it was developed by the ubuntu developers, so it's quite natural that they are ahead on it. (And I'm not even sure pmount is or will be part of the "normal" project utopia stuff)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

when i tried it there wasnt even mplayer so it didnt last very long on my disk, from what i gathered it is basicly another debian based distro with a pretty instaler. i would add im a kde user so im never going to be a big fan of mainly gnome based distro but it is one of big advantages linux has that so many distros are basicly improving each other with new ideas
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm using ubuntu right now...don't get me wrong I love gentoo and like it a lot better then ubuntu its just that my hd is fscked with bad blocks so rather then go through the lengthy process of installing gentoo on it I just tossed ubuntu on it which took about 15min for a fully working desktop. So until I get a new hd I'll be using ubuntu, not that it is a bad distro or anything but I'll take gentoo over it anyday :D
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tried ubuntu last night, but I couldn't get it working with my damn nvidia card. Gentoo works perfectly with it, Fedora used to until I upgraded my kernel, and now ubuntu refuses to work. I installed nvidia exactly per the instructions on there website, but it just won't work. I am not sure I am going to spend my time trying to figure it out, either. Fedora and Ubuntu might be getting the axe because they refuse to play nice with my card....now granted the error is mostly likely on my end of the system, but maybe not. I have used identical xorg/xfree nvidia sections, commented out the dri line, but damn if it won't work.

So maybe gentoo "just works TM" :wink:

Edit - thought I should mention I run a dual monitor system.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:50 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

I tryed ubuntu like one week ago... its nice but some programs dont work. Same problems with my friends some programs wouldnt work. Anyways i would try arch Ive been using it for 2 months now and its great. I like arch even better then gentoo. No more waiting for stuff to compile... when it really doesnt make stuff go faster And pacman is great :twisted:
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely switched from Gentoo for Ubuntu a few months ago when school started. I lost the free time I had before for tweaking, and had received many recommendations for Ubuntu.

It installs quickly (console-based installer), giving you a functional Gnome desktop with many of the types of configuration applications you have come to know and love from Fedora (heh). It comes with many applications on its single installation CD, including the Synaptic front-end for apt-get. After 30-45 minutes, I had installed imwheel, configured X to use my extra mouse buttons and the Radeon driver, gotten MP3 support in XMMS, installed mplayer and Xine, and configured X to use a resolution higher than 1024x768 (since the ATI configurator doesn't work on many systems for some reason).

KDE is not installed by default, but if installed, comes with a mostly Ubuntu-aware configuration, including menu items for installed applications. Fluxbox, Ion, etc. also install and work in GDM without "extra" configuration.

Anyway, I'm happy with the move. I most appreciate not having to wait for applications to compile, although having to install alternative packages rather than setting USE flags is somewhat of a nuisance. Thus, installing anything like OpenOffice or Firefox takes basically as long as the download. The wiki has instructions for most things you want to do. Anyone else had similar experiences?
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ba747heavy wrote:
I tried ubuntu last night, but I couldn't get it working with my damn nvidia card. Gentoo works perfectly with it, Fedora used to until I upgraded my kernel, and now ubuntu refuses to work. I installed nvidia exactly per the instructions on there website, but it just won't work. I am not sure I am going to spend my time trying to figure it out, either. Fedora and Ubuntu might be getting the axe because they refuse to play nice with my card....now granted the error is mostly likely on my end of the system, but maybe not. I have used identical xorg/xfree nvidia sections, commented out the dri line, but damn if it won't work.

So maybe gentoo "just works TM" :wink:

Edit - thought I should mention I run a dual monitor system.
Did you use nVidia's instructions, or Ubuntu's? nVidia's are proven not to work under Debian...
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used ubuntu's, using the apt-get program.

Code:
$ sudo apt-get install nvidia-glx
$ sudo apt-get install nvidia-settings
$ sudo nvidia-glx-config enable


Then I edited the XFree config and enabled my multimonitor settings. No joy. It faults out with some error about ACM or something like that, same as fedora. Like I said, I haven't invested a ton of time into investigating why it isn't working.

BTW, is ubuntu really using XFree (ew), or are they just using XFree86-4 as the config file for legacy reasons?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ba747heavy wrote:
BTW, is ubuntu really using XFree (ew), or are they just using XFree86-4 as the config file for legacy reasons?

Warty Warthog, which I assume is what you are using, only supports XFree. The April release, Hoary Hedgehog (?), is when Xorg will be implemented. If you really feel the urge, you can set a few flags in your apt-get config to update immediately, but there are still some issues that have yet to be resolved.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks AllTom, just the info I was after.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo
pros: less bloated, up to date, super cool
cons: takes forever

Ubuntu
pros: just works, good community, easy does it
cons: less up to date, not as easy to break out of the standard package tree

I could be wrong
I'm using gentoo at home, installing ubuntu at school, plan on trying arch some time
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: Ubuntu vs Gentoo Reply with quote

SnEptUne wrote:
Hi,

I have been using Gentoo for over a year. So far, it does what it claims to do. However, I heard that a lot of users from Gentoo are moving to Ubuntu, which is a binary based distrobution. So what are the strengths of ubuntu. Does it worth it if I install it on my sister's computer? Any inputs are welcome.


Hi.
I am an Ubuntu user. That means when i turn on my computer and don't touch a key i got ubuntu ready for work and play. Last month, with a free time and curious i get a chair and gentoo's install handbook and put on a gentoo (4 nights long). I'm on the opposite position of yours :). I love Ubuntu, and have it from some pre-release days. Always a charm. Some things on this thread don't seems quite correct, so here my 2 cents:

nvidia, works very well. (i note that I've got a faster gxlgears results on gentoo...) It works good with ubuntu deb and with nvidia drivers (one are the other, since they are not open code...) I end up with nvidia driver, they are more uptodate and the script allows a faster and (for me) simpler module update when I compile a new kernel. On the other side ATI can work but are a pain... But are always on linux, no matter the distro :(

It keeps the great part of they package out of sight at beginning. It's necessary to uncomment some line at /etc/apt/sources.list There are suppose to be the unsupported and the not totally GPL stuff. But they work great. They came from debian and it slow and efficient machine of depurate apps (hello sid). After clean 2 # on a file, got a little more then 14 thousand packages. And yes they do new stuff, not only security updates. (Please note that is almost twice the 8700 of gentoo, so is normal that there are less new stuff to include on a day-by-day basis)

I find until now not a single one thing that didn't work and that didn't work at 1st and out of apt. Some people here say they had problems with non working applications... Thats not usual, but check ubuntu foruns index to see the most problematic applications, maybe I'm just a lucky guy.

One nice application for newbies is synaptic. It's a GUI to apt that allows to browse to available apps (and they description, sizes, versions, ...) and install the desired ones with 2 clics. Very stable, simple and good to find new things. (Gentoo had one of the kind, porthole, but seems not to much loved by users...)

Hardware and hardware detection are one of the best thing usually point out about ubuntu. My self i had nothing to complain.

Every 6 month they offer a new present (happytwicebirthday). Stable Bleeding edge. The 1st distro with the last gnome always. It's like christams twice a year.

It is not american :). Ok this one is not fair. But, very dumb, i discover that gentoo is american only after i installed and sweet a lot. I should had look that cow on the splash with different eyes. I tend to be a little anti-american these days. A little. I simple avoid american stuff. In the mean while I keep an interest on gentoo so i used a lot latelly. I know this is a little personal, but a lot of people (in the world, i mean) tend to dislike USA this days. Who's faulty?

Not so good thing:
Ubuntu IS NOT Debian. So it's dangerous to mix repositoires. And it's more danger mix hoary with warty then, sid with sarge. Note that ubuntu moves fast and releases at fixed dates. They unstable brunch are more agressive then debians one. My last playing with plain hoary left me and many others with gnome 2.6.9 but no menu entrys (I use that partition now for gentoo)

It uses Xfree86, heavy patched. If you need Xorg as the air to breed, choose another distro or wait til hoary release (April i think).

Prelink. Ubuntu cames out of the box with the binaries prelinked. Thats one of the reasons it is fast. (The one must be the guys compile the binaries with nice options, intead of -O9 -all-other-flags-i-can-find-on-gcc-man..., i'm serious, i read about a guy owho use -O9!). It's (with yoper) the fastest distro i tried. (Gentoo needed a little trial-and-error to get the most out of it, most people seems to simple use the maximum optimization for CFLAGS. I imagine that plain ubuntu is faster then most of gentoo boxes, with apps blinded emerged). But prelink is not much advertised (like yoper do). With time and updates, ubuntu becames slower and slower. Of course if you know why you can just install prelink and... prelink on a scheduled basis. If you don't know that, your ubuntu box will look like a windows thing... slower every week.

Look and feel. Well I don't like gentoo violet and blue, mixed with polish metal "g" everywhere... but Ubuntu really sucks! Its all flat and brown. Dark brown. And they artwork goes some place between naif and almost pornographic. But thats the easy part to avoid. Just choose the right theme for your taste. And surf a little for nice wallpapers. I made mine...

About your sister box. I don't think that one should say what distro is better (they are like cats, they choose the user not the other way around.) I think the unknown is your sister. Sit her on a machine with 4 or 5 WM. Look each one is her most confortable. If she likes most KDE. I suggest that Mephis or Yoper (not for old machines) may produce a lot of happiness. Or even Sarge. If she likes Gnome don't think twice. Put ubuntu. You probabilly save her and yourself a lot of trouble. She will mostly unlike WindowMaker, fluxbox, enlightment... And if she likes Xfce4 (an absolut wonderfull) everything is good. :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Gentooooooooooooo. Theres nothing really better for playing around at home with a distro than Gentoo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RuiP, that's one of the coolest posts I've ever come across on these forums.

Thanks for the info.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey, thanks freeix. Just trying to be fair. I like both, gentoo it's giving me a lot of troble...

SnEpUne,
I forgot one inportant point. A gentoo crtitic. Kids. If your sister have kids, they will like ubuntu more. Under gentoo any single app that my kid use is broken or don't work because SDL seg fault all times. Exception goes to gCompris... but inthat case ebuil just exist for old 6.1. Gentoo guys don't have kids? (cmon people you are typing to much, emerge -u sex) Flexibility for all. My 4 years daughter loves linux but now she can only play with letters with abiword. Even gcompris don't allow her to play ball with tux on the beach. My kid is one third of the users of my computers. If i can't fix SDL soon, my family kill me or starts to "man" searching on how to erase the "g"
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RuiP wrote:
hey, thanks freeix. Just trying to be fair. I like both, gentoo it's giving me a lot of troble...

SnEpUne,
I forgot one inportant point. A gentoo crtitic. Kids. If your sister have kids, they will like ubuntu more. Under gentoo any single app that my kid use is broken or don't work because SDL seg fault all times. Exception goes to gCompris... but inthat case ebuil just exist for old 6.1. Gentoo guys don't have kids? (cmon people you are typing to much, emerge -u sex) Flexibility for all. My 4 years daughter loves linux but now she can only play with letters with abiword. Even gcompris don't allow her to play ball with tux on the beach. My kid is one third of the users of my computers. If i can't fix SDL soon, my family kill me or starts to "man" searching on how to erase the "g"


That is getting a bit personal. We don't have kids and such. On the other hand, ubuntu would get slower weekly? I don't think that is very nice. As for KDE/Gnome/Xfce4, she properly wouldn't care as long as she can use AutoCad and other programs for university. She isn't very dependent on computer, which is a very good idea.

On the other hand, as RuiP has mentioned, "artwork goes some place between naif and almost pornographic", that isn't very nice. I dispise those kind of "artwork" a lot. I don't like the idea of having something like that on the harddrive of the computers in my house.

However, I would need to make sure the encyclopedia can run under wine first though. Until then, she would have to make do with windows.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnEptUne wrote:
"artwork goes some place between naif and almost pornographic", that isn't very nice. I dispise those kind of "artwork" a lot.
It's not that kind of artwork, it's just a strange idea for a login screen: http://www.ubuntulinux.org/login.jpeg
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnEptUne wrote:

That is getting a bit personal. We don't have kids and such. On the other hand, ubuntu would get slower weekly? I don't think that is very nice. As for KDE/Gnome/Xfce4, she properly wouldn't care as long as she can use AutoCad and other programs for university. She isn't very dependent on computer, which is a very good idea.

On the other hand, as RuiP has mentioned, "artwork goes some place between naif and almost pornographic", that isn't very nice. I dispise those kind of "artwork" a lot. I don't like the idea of having something like that on the harddrive of the computers in my house.

However, I would need to make sure the encyclopedia can run under wine first though. Until then, she would have to make do with windows.


personal?... sorry. I don't pretend to mean or imply nothing. English is not my native language, i hope i didn't commit any gaffe...

Kids... A lot of people have :). I suppose that others will read this posts too. My point was only that Gentoo seems extremely oriented to servers and admnistrative tasks. Emerge don't offers to much for kids pleasure (but offers a lot of games for teens and growups...) Flexibility imply lot of choices not only one or two....

Weekly slower... not mean to be fade to slowness. Just 2 speeds. Faster then Sid and later on Sid' speed. prelink weekly as a cron task will keep the beast tune up. For one of the fastest distro available. Even in "slow motion" Ubuntu is fast. Same thing for gentoo. After "emerge system" things are very fast. emerge icewm fluxbox keep it fast, but as soon as you do something like emerge gdm, a lot of gnome stuff compile too and things starts to slow down.

My (SMALL) experience showing linux to "outsiders" show me an hypersensibilitty to WM. Some peolple don't complain a little with KDE, others just freak out with Fluxbox, some find Gnome dry and useless others says they wish they windows look and behave that way... always mutating and diverse human nature on action... never that amazing absolute distro that will make all says Ahhhhhh!! (or even muuuuuuuuuu). As Ubuntu kde is not great implemented, I'll never say is a great distro for anyone who feels confortable only with that wm. Beeing an ubuntu user (and lover) don't make me starts to says it's the best and only distro just because.

Put my post in other words. If you fill confortable with Gentoo and gentoo don't give you any special trouble keep it working, then i suppose its the best choice for your sister computer. It's a well known fact that gentoo is not an absolute choice for newbies. If you have time to solve any possible problem that your sister can have why not. If you just want to install and keep you both time to fun and enjoy each other, maybe a distro more "all aou of the box" are a better choice. Ubuntu is nice for Gnome, Mepis is very praised by KDE users. XFCE goes well with any.

About artwork. I said "almost pornographic". For me they are pornografic. In the sense that I find any unusefull exhibition of peoples intimacy pornografic. I find most of TV programs pornografic, most of the News pornografic. As you see just a personal opinion. The question turns to be the greatest post on Ubuntu foruns... I think its still growing. They intention are the best. They pretend to capture human essence, so they use the human body. Sometimes its hard to see the conection, but... They choose a bad photographer to do the shots. The kind of one who do fashion and "arty" work. They choose (politically correctness) 2 women and 1 men, 2 whites and 1 black (shouldn't be the other way according to statistics?) But they choose young people, maybe professional models. They are to fashion, to perfect. Fatness, age, imperfection are huge parts of human nature, hide it beeing some tired look of soop advertisement is pornografic to me. Besides Human is not equal to white+black. We change so much... we are so different... It's not even necessary imagination... just put people around the world mixed... thats Us. Want it or not. Ubuntu, the concept. Same insiders seems to suggest a more abstract approachs:
http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php?content=17358
http://www.volvoguy.net/ubuntu/
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer Gentoo for the time being. Ubuntu is a great distro to give someone new to linux, or when you need a system up and running in a short amount of time. The install timess for programs are of course much less than gentoo. Also, if you don't feel inclined to wait 6 months for major software updates, and would rather have them sooner, you can try running ubuntu's devel versions, which people claim are stable and without major problems.

While all this is great, you must remember that maturity goes a long way, and in that sense Gentoo wins hands down. Ubuntu may leverage debian's huge package repositories, but things like system integration (package ebuilds and base layouts are all well tested), forums, and management utilties are far more mature in Gentoo. Gentoo has utilities that are fairly easy to set up to get all machines on a network working together, either with distcc or shared package distribution sites. Heck, getting distcc going is as simple as a FEATURES flag and the emergence of a package (and, recently, specifying which hosts are allowed to use the service). Correct me if it's that easy in ubuntu.

Another example is Java package management. With Gentoo, you have tools that easily manipulate your java jre/jdk versions and the libraries you have on your classpath. I don't think there's anything this sophisticated in any other distros, and people probably have to roll their own solutions if they want to have flexible java development.

Gentoo has a package framework in place with a huge measure of configurability, like per package use flags, easy specification of stable vs. unstable (package.keywords), masking of packages, etc. This makes developing software with specific package versions as much of a pleasure as it can be.

Now, keep in mind that the two project's aims are very different, and most of the advantages of Gentoo I've listed above have somewhat of a development flavor to them. I think it is clear that, for flexibility and bleeding edge capability, Gentoo will always be ahead of Ubuntu (because that's one of its major aims), while Ubuntu will always have a more focused, user-centric setup.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prefer gentoo right now, b/c of all the tweaking I can do. But Ubuntu is very slick, the company sent me cds of it for free, which is a plus in my opinion. They came with live cds, packed with applications, and are very handy in the instances where i do something to mess up my gentoo install, which happens frequently.
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