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Bob P
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

old versions of gcc used to pull in libstdc++-v3 as a dependency. new ones don't. the toolkit build fails if you fail to install libstdc++, so the step has been added manually. there's your answer.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the answer, but on the other hand, you dont need to be rudy, i personally looked for the answer, read you posts and couldnt find it.

The reason i argued against you was: you said the gcc-3.4 guide was EXPERIMENTAL and i couldnt find the emerge -e system && emerge -e system in the gcc-3.4.3 guide (that is more stable and well-tested), there inst many differences between the two guides, so i thought it could be a mistake. I dont blindly follow what people say, that's why i came here and tried find the answer.

thanks for guide and sorry about any disagreement

cheers :D
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark_Cloud wrote:
Thanks for the answer, but on the other hand, you dont need to be rudy, i personally looked for the answer, read you posts and couldnt find it.

The reason i argued against you was: you said the gcc-3.4 guide was EXPERIMENTAL and i couldnt find the emerge -e system && emerge -e system in the gcc-3.4.3 guide (that is more stable and well-tested), there inst many differences between the two guides, so i thought it could be a mistake. I dont blindly follow what people say, that's why i came here and tried find the answer.

thanks for guide and sorry about any disagreement

cheers :D


Ok! the Author says that the reasons behind operating "emerge - system", in the old guide, and "emerge -e system && emerge -e system", in the new guide have already been explained in a lot of different places, doesn't He?

With this information, have you Dark_Cloud found out where the subject is treated and explained? I'm still searching but I don't find anything closely related to that subject.

I'm sorry too about his disagreement but I think he could answer to this special question that I don't see is treated anywhere. Because He asks in his guide to communicate him suspicious bugs this is exactly what we have done, I suppose... Obviously this is not what he meant.

However, just for people that "dont blindly follow what people say", like Dark_Cloud, this is my personl experience:

I have run the first "emerge -e system", then I copied in my home directory some important executables (like Bash) that were emerged at this first round. After I run "md5sum" on them and saved the hashes. Then I run again "emerge -e system", as it is stated in the new guide we are discussing about. At the end I used both "diff" and "md5sum" on the same files I had saved before. As everyone can imagine there was no difference between those file.

I must conclude there is absolutely no need to run "emerge -e system" twice, one after another, as it is stated in the new guide.

Notwithstanding what the author says I like his guide 8) and I thank him for providing it, but I will continue to use it the way I have expalained here, because I see those redundances.

I will continue to use it this way at least until someone is able to explain carefully why in the old one (gcc-3.4.3) we read and need only one "emerge -e system" while in the latest (gcc-3.4.4) we read and need "emerge -e system && emerge -e system".

None has yet provided any answer for a so simple question.

PS.: With a little trick I was able to "emerge -e system" without that old libstdc++ that no one needs. But this is another story...
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark_Cloud wrote:
Thanks for the answer, but on the other hand, you dont need to be rudy, i personally looked for the answer, read you posts and couldnt find it.

The reason i argued against you was: you said the gcc-3.4 guide was EXPERIMENTAL and i couldnt find the emerge -e system && emerge -e system in the gcc-3.4.3 guide (that is more stable and well-tested)


Nope. The information about performing two emerge -e systems is in the 3.4.3 version of the Guide. You just haven't read the entire thread.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kueitao wrote:
Dark_Cloud wrote:
Thanks for the answer, but on the other hand, you dont need to be rudy, i personally looked for the answer, read you posts and couldnt find it.

The reason i argued against you was: you said the gcc-3.4 guide was EXPERIMENTAL and i couldnt find the emerge -e system && emerge -e system in the gcc-3.4.3 guide (that is more stable and well-tested), there inst many differences between the two guides, so i thought it could be a mistake. I dont blindly follow what people say, that's why i came here and tried find the answer.

thanks for guide and sorry about any disagreement

cheers :D


Ok! the Author says that the reasons behind operating "emerge - system", in the old guide, and "emerge -e system && emerge -e system", in the new guide have already been explained in a lot of different places, doesn't He?

With this information, have you Dark_Cloud found out where the subject is treated and explained? I'm still searching but I don't find anything closely related to that subject.

I'm sorry too about his disagreement but I think he could answer to this special question that I don't see is treated anywhere. Because He asks in his guide to communicate him suspicious bugs this is exactly what we have done, I suppose... Obviously this is not what he meant.

However, just for people that "dont blindly follow what people say", like Dark_Cloud, this is my personl experience:

I have run the first "emerge -e system", then I copied in my home directory some important executables (like Bash) that were emerged at this first round. After I run "md5sum" on them and saved the hashes. Then I run again "emerge -e system", as it is stated in the new guide we are discussing about. At the end I used both "diff" and "md5sum" on the same files I had saved before. As everyone can imagine there was no difference between those file.

I must conclude there is absolutely no need to run "emerge -e system" twice, one after another, as it is stated in the new guide. (emphasis added)

Notwithstanding what the author says I like his guide 8) and I thank him for providing it, but I will continue to use it the way I have expalained here, because I see those redundances.

I will continue to use it this way at least until someone is able to explain carefully why in the old one (gcc-3.4.3) we read and need only one "emerge -e system" while in the latest (gcc-3.4.4) we read and need "emerge -e system && emerge -e system".

None has yet provided any answer for a so simple question.

PS.: With a little trick I was able to "emerge -e system" without that old libstdc++ that no one needs. But this is another story...


sorry to disappoint you guys, but my purpose here is not to provide free personalized tutorial services for everyone who isn't up to speed -- my purpose here is to write-up an installation method that will work if you follow it -- nothing more.

the Guide works as it is written. if you don't think that steps are necessary, nobody's forcing you to perform them. you just need to realize that if you choose not to follow the Guide and your system breaks, then you get to keep the pieces. you shouldn't come back here looking for support. there's nothing rude about my telling you that.

i know that this will disappoint you, but i am not going to comb through the threads to look for hyperlinks to tutor you on the things that you need to know as a prerequisite for using the Guide. i just don't have the time. many people who haven't been up to speed have just chosen to accept the Guide for what it is, and follow it, even though they may not fully understand what they are doing. i find it a little surprising that some people who are in the same boat of inexperience would take the opposite tack and start an argument that is founded upon a lack of understanding on their part.

unfortunately, knowledge requires study and there's no shortcut in obtaining knowledge. as a practical matter, you're asking about one of the most esoteric problems that are encountered in building Gentoo -- why Gentoo doesn't work the way it is supposed to work, and what needs to be done to fix the problem. these are the kind of problems that only the most experienced Gentoo users are very familiar with. even though i've spent alot of time using my experience to write the Guide to help people , i don't have enough time to personally educate everyone on the forums to bring them up to my level of expertise on this subject. besides, i think that most users are looking for a quick and dirty answer and wouldn't want to spend the time that it would take to learn everthing that they need to know to really become up to speed.

if you are interested in learning, i have provided you with keywords that you can use with the board's SEARCH function to find threads that contain the information that you need to know to get you started. at this point, it is up to you to make the choice of performing the search and reading the information or not performing the search and not reading the information.

if you choose to do the search and find the information, then eventually your questions will be answered by your reading. if you choose not to do the search, you won't find the information and this will be a case of my leading a horse to water, only to find that he doesn't want to drink. that's as far as i can go, as i don't have the time to spoon-feed everyone who doesn't understand the nature of the problem with statically retained libraries.

suffice it to say that there's a difference between the theory of how Gentoo/GCC/portage are supposed to work in theory, and how they actually perform in practice. many people have already made theoretical arguments like yours about how the install should work -- only to find that they run into problems. this Guide has been designed from practical experience to circumvent those problems. experienced Gentoo users are expected to understand the concept, and that is one of the reasons that the warnings at the beginning of the Guide state that its for advanced users only,

if the logic of the Guide doesn't make sense to you, then this Guide is not appropriate for your level of expertise. i'm not trying to be snooty by saying that, those are just the facts and maybe the Gentoo Installation Handbook would be better suited to your needs. in the final analysis, you have the choice to follow the guide or not to follow the Guide. nobody's forcing you to follow it. i find it amusing, though, that you are so vehement in your denial that information exists just because you weren't able to find it.

again, my apologies for providing free support services that aren't up to your expectations. unfortunately i don't have the time to tutor everyone that comes along on the forums. if you still need more information about this, i would focus on the posts by @robmoss, @moocha and @bobp in the Portage & Programming forum that relate to properly rebuilding the toolkit. if you still have trouble, perhaps you should start a thread there asking why its sometimes necessary to perform emerge -e system twice. i'm sure that there are plenty of people who could help.

have fun. :wink:
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark_Cloud wrote:

The reason i argued against you was: you said the gcc-3.4 guide was EXPERIMENTAL and i couldnt find the emerge -e system && emerge -e system in the gcc-3.4.3 guide (that is more stable and well-tested)


I didnt read the entire thread (gcc-3.4.3), the fact is that i read the guide, as i said! I wanted to use the gcc-3.4.4 so, i just read its thread (fully)

Bob P wrote:
i know that this will disappoint you, but i am not going to comb through the threads to look for hyperlinks to tutor you on the things that you need to know as a prerequisite for using the Guide. i just don't have the time. many people who haven't been up to speed have just chosen to accept the Guide for what it is, and follow it, even though they may not fully understand what they are doing. i find it a little surprising that some people who are in the same boat of inexperience would take the opposite tack and start an argument that is founded upon a lack of understanding on their part.


i dont consider myself an experienced gentoo, still have many things to learn... but the statically retained libraries problem was something i really could link with the two emerge -e system, just wanted you to ensure it. Follow something i can not understand is a thing i will not do, one of the reasons i use linux is because i can understand what it do. Inexperience of my part? maybe, but im here to get the knowledge, no one knows everything.

cheers :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the answer to the emerge -e system && emerge -e system related questions will be found at the other guide Stage 1/3 Installation Guide for 2005.0 and GCC 3.4.3

for an example of problem take a look at the second page, @moocha and read @Bob P's reply

cheers :D
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this reply will get the Blue Treatment so that its easy for other people to find.

one thing that really helped me understand the toolkit build order from a theoretical standpoint is the linux from scratch documentation. but even that only gives theoretical considerations about why particular packages should be built in any particular order. it doesn't really address the somewhat convoluted way that we're building Gentoo because Portage doesn't build things in the proper order. redundant system/world compilations are the textbook way to address this problem via a brute-strength approach.

many new users have focused upon the fact that Package A gets compiled X number of times, as if the number of compilations is some sort of indictment of the building method. these people tend to miss the nuances about why you need to use the same version of the compiler to build itself -- the compiler that was used to build the compiler that builds their compiler needs to be the same compiler -- and how much redundant compiling is necessary to make that happen. :? granted, it does seem somewhat rediculous, but it really isn't.

if you were to read robmoss' posts about how to rebuild the system, he would suggest that you do the following every time that a major toolkit component is upgraded:


Code:
emerge -e system && emerge -e system && emerge -e world && emerge -e world


that approach is necessary because Portage does not build things in the proper order, and you have to make multiple passes in compiling to assure that packages are compiled against the proper packages. the logic behind the need for each step has already been beaten to death in the Stage 1/3 threads, so i won't reiterate it here.

in the Stage 1/3 Guide, I've tried to trim-down the total compiling time in comparison to the robmoss method, so that only the things that really need to be compiled are compiled. that's why we build the toolkit first (redundantly for the reasons stated earlier) and then use a properly built toolkit to perform two emerge -e systems to purge all remnants of code generated by an obsolete compiler from the system. then, when the system packages are properly built, the world files are populated and you only have to build them once instead of twice. this approach is alot quicker than the robmoss approach (especially if you have alot of world packages like X), and accomplishes the same thing in much less time. experience has shown that trying to cut out one of the emerge -e systems (like i did in previous versions of the Guide) just don't work -- the toolkit is never built properly failures inevitably result.

rebuilding a system toolkit is a very difficult procedure to get right. traditionally, you need to bootstrap in order to do this properly, especially if you are changing architecture or chost specifications. unfortuantely, bootstrapping into the testing branch in Gentoo is a risky venture at best, not to mention the circular dependency problems that are often encountered with Stage 1 installs. The Stage 1/3 method solves all of those problems at the expense of taking an awful lot of time to complete.

the warning in the preface to the Guide specifically cautions the user the time commitment that is required to perform this install properly. no, it wasn't a joke, and yes, every step is really necessary for the system to perform with integrity.

hth.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dark_Cloud wrote:
the answer to the emerge -e system && emerge -e system related questions will be found at the other guide Stage 1/3 Installation Guide for 2005.0 and GCC 3.4.3

for an example of problem take a look at the second page, @moocha and read @Bob P's reply

cheers :D


Thank you. Now that I have just found it I cannot disagree anymore with that logic. I'm sorry I couldn't understand that reading the entire thread on installing with gcc-3.4.3 was essential to fully comprehend those mechanisms. It's my fault I supposed that only the guide itself on gcc-3.4.3, to which anyway I didn't give much attention because I was trying to install with gcc-3.4.4, was enough to make assumptions on how many "emerge -e system" were needed.

Cheers.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
this reply will get the Blue Treatment so that its easy for other people to find


[cut some lines]

Bob P wrote:

Code:
emerge -e system && emerge -e system && emerge -e world && emerge -e world


... that approach is necessary because Portage does not build things in the proper order ...


[cut some more lines]

Thank you for the above quoted code and your detailed explanation on the subject. Now it's all very clear (also with contribution of the whole reading of "installation 1/3 with gcc-3.4.3". As I wrote in the last post, I'm sorry I couldn't understand I should had read the whole thread, not stopping at the end of the guide. :oops:

Regards.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shouldn't you be including an emerge linux-headers before rebuilding glibc?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOU sir!, are a god among men. :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

teilo wrote:
Shouldn't you be including an emerge linux-headers before rebuilding glibc?


why?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, i just did a quick glance at the Documentation Tips & Tricks forum. It seems that the 3 versions of the Stage 1/3 Guides have reached a total viewing of 125,432 page views, and the support threads have reached a total of 84,031 page views, for a total of 209,463 page views (not counting any of the Jackass! threads).

the only other installation guide that comes close is ali3nx's excellent Stage 1 tut, currently at 118,584 page views.

who would have thought that this installation method would have caught on like wildfire?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea, verily, it is a like unto a force of nature.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bobp,

great work again. But haven't you forgotten a "mkdir /mnt/gentoo" ? :)
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

Just a little thing about setting the time, you wrote:
Quote:
6.4.3 Get it Right for Daylight Savings Time.

The previous example showed how to select a city when setting the timezone symlink. It is my opinion that you should always choose a city that is in your time zone, and use the city to set the time zone symlink. You should NEVER choose a time zone as your symlink for the setting the time zone. Here's why:

I live in Chicagoland. By setting the timezone symlink to the nearest major city, Chicago, I don't have to worry about implementing Daylight Savings Time. Linux is smart enough to spring forward and fall back so that no changes to the system time are necessary on my part. This past weekend, when Chicago changed from Central Standard Time to Central Daylight Time, I watched with glee as the clocks on all of my linux PCs ticked from 01:59:59 CST to 03:00:00 CDT. (Just in case you were wondering, THAT is confirmation that I am a basement-dwelling linux g33k!) If I had made the mistake of setting the timezone symlink to CST, then linux would have kept my PC's clock on CST, even though the city that I live in had switched to CDT. In this case, I would either have to manually change my clock over from CST to CDT, or learn to live with a PC who's clock is off by an hour.


But if I set my time to CET it does adjust to CEST. When the clock hits 032701592005 CET it will go to 032703002005 CEST once it reached 032702002005 CET. I checked it myself. 8) (can I join the club of basement-dwelling linux g33ks?)

Tashiro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tashiro wrote:
Hi Bob,

Just a little thing about setting the time, you wrote:
Quote:
6.4.3 Get it Right for Daylight Savings Time.

The previous example showed how to select a city when setting the timezone symlink. It is my opinion that you should always choose a city that is in your time zone, and use the city to set the time zone symlink. You should NEVER choose a time zone as your symlink for the setting the time zone. Here's why:

I live in Chicagoland. By setting the timezone symlink to the nearest major city, Chicago, I don't have to worry about implementing Daylight Savings Time. Linux is smart enough to spring forward and fall back so that no changes to the system time are necessary on my part. This past weekend, when Chicago changed from Central Standard Time to Central Daylight Time, I watched with glee as the clocks on all of my linux PCs ticked from 01:59:59 CST to 03:00:00 CDT. (Just in case you were wondering, THAT is confirmation that I am a basement-dwelling linux g33k!) If I had made the mistake of setting the timezone symlink to CST, then linux would have kept my PC's clock on CST, even though the city that I live in had switched to CDT. In this case, I would either have to manually change my clock over from CST to CDT, or learn to live with a PC who's clock is off by an hour.


But if I set my time to CET it does adjust to CEST. When the clock hits 032701592005 CET it will go to 032703002005 CEST once it reached 032702002005 CET. I checked it myself. 8) (can I join the club of basement-dwelling linux g33ks?)

Tashiro


well, whether you can join the club of basement-dwelling linux g33ks depends upon other things, like whether you're a g33k who dwells in a basement. :wink:

regarding timezones, my answer is still no -- to have timezones work properly 100% of the time you need to either: 1) specify where you are by specifying the city and not just the time zone (and linux will set the status of the DST observance toggle for you), or 2) specify the timezone AND whether or not DST is observed.

in the first case, linux knows how to set the DST toggle based on your city. in the second case, you need to properly specify the status of the DST toggle or specifying the time zone will not be enough to get DST right.

granted, the exceptions to this rule are rare, and you're not likely to encounter them unless you live in some parts of Indiana or in Hawaii, where Daylight Savings Time is not observed. if you were to be in one of those locales and you were to specify CST or CDT, then your PC would switch back and forth inappropriately. Indianapolis stays on EST year round, so its in-sync with Chicago during CDT and New York during EST. only basement dwelling ub3r-g33ks know this kind of stuff. 8)
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you but is it possible to get it in a printable version? I'm printing at my work now so I don't really care but what about those who can't do that. Just some input :)

cheers!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guide is printable. Either just directly print the entirety of the first page of this thread, or highlight, copy, and paste the steps of the instructions to a text editor, and then print that.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

esson wrote:
Thank you but is it possible to get it in a printable version? I'm printing at my work now so I don't really care but what about those who can't do that. Just some input :)

cheers!

there is a PDF version available though its a bit outdated. follow the links.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

:arrow: PDF Updated.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Preface: I have followed the "official" Gentoo installation guide for 2005.1 (don't be afraid, my question isn't related to or depending on 2005.1) for getting a base Gentoo x86 system running. But since I wanted to make use of new gcc 3.4.x flags, in particular "-march=pentium-m", I am following your guide to make the upgrade from gcc 3.3.5 to 3.4.4. So far, no problems.

But in addition/comparison to your guide, I already have a handful of packages already emerged (syslog-ng, vixie-cron, etc.), and I found the whole list of packages in /var/lib/portage/world. Looking at your comments about robmoss' method to make sure packages are recompiled correctly, my question is:

When I follow your guide but already have some packages installed, is it enough to just "emerge XY YZ ..." for those packages after doing "emerge -e system && emerge -e system", or is a "emerge -e world && emerge -e world" necessary - which would implicitly also re-emerge packages in system twice? Maybe a note in your guide would be nice for those who have for whatever reasons a small set of additional packages installed (including those who stumbled upon it after the initial Gentoo installation).
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that question comes up every now and then. the scope of this guide is limited to installing, not rebuilding complete systems, even though it does a toolkit rebuild during the course of the install.

reading your question, it seems that you don't have a firm grasp of what the difference is between "system" packages and "world" packages. if you have packages already installed, they'll get rebuilt if you perform all of the redundant emerges.

when in doubt: emerge -e system && emerge -e system && emerge -e world && emerge -e world. if you read robmoss' posts about this subject (or the many reiterations of this subject in the various Stage 1/3 threads), the reason for each step should be very clear.
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Enibevoli
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
reading your question, it seems that you don't have a firm grasp of what the difference is between "system" packages and "world" packages. if you have packages already installed, they'll get rebuilt if you perform all of the redundant emerges.

Aye, you're right about the firm grasp. :wink: The man page of emerge simply reads

Code:
world contains all of the packages in system, along with any other packages listed in /var/lib/portage/world

but fails to inform what exactly is in system (or where one can find this information; I'm sure I will find this information finally though). From what I could tell reading the man page, "emerge world" would implicitly also emerge all packages in system, which was already done twice in your guide. My /var/lib/portage/world has only 17 lines currently with just some basic packages such as grub, nano and coldplug. I hoped to find a way to exclude already-emerged packages listed in system by calculating the subset of packages "world - system" and just recompiling the remaining subset twice to safe precious CPU time.

Bob P wrote:
when in doubt: emerge -e system && emerge -e system && emerge -e world && emerge -e world. if you read robmoss' posts about this subject (or the many reiterations of this subject in the various Stage 1/3 threads), the reason for each step should be very clear.

Thanks, will do.
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