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sneakyme66
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bloat = 1. un-needed gui's to basic sys administrative tasts...servers...x configs...hardware config...etc.
2. toons of useless and very specific Kprograms for the everday user


That's what i think of as bloat.
i never complained about it being bloaty tho, the way it is now, it's fairly easy to trim and i like that.
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boilersuit
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see bloat as an added feature, of little or no perceived value, bundelled with something I need. Some megapackages seem to suffer from 'featuritis', where someone must sit down and think, wouldn't it be great if we added bla, bla, bla. The end result often being a button that once clicked, promptly dissapears up it's own arse until the next release. Adding features is not necessarily an improvement, fixing problems with what we have already may be more preferable at times. Fortunately, some of us only have a little moan about bloat in Linux, with Windows apps, it's often escalates another order of magnitude to blubber.
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aidy
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I note that KDE 3.4 absolutely doesn't suck, the previous versions where very slow on my comp, but now everything is really fast! So just continue with your migration plans.
EDIT: Why not just try it yourself, you can allways unmerge it if you don't like it.
EDIT: OOps, just saw you did that allready
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superstoned
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ebrostig wrote:
Kensai wrote:
I have done the same once sneakyme66 and believe me KDE sucks. I though kde was better when I switched to it but all I have found in kde is bloat and junk I'm reinstalling again just to make a clean gnome gtk system again. BTW, QT interface sucks too is ugly.:wink:


Could you please explain in simple terms what "bloat" is and what in KDE qualify as "bloat"? And also why Gnome do not have this socalled "bloat"?


they mean gnome can't do 1% what KDE can (if you want to go through the abomination that's called gconf, you can do say 20%. of course, there is kconfigeditor, and you're back on 1%)

ok

that was not nice

but serious, most gnomes think kde can do too much. well, i like it, so i call it flexibility. they don't like it, so they call it bloath. just as the xfce guys call gnome bloath. its just another word. and it doesn't say anything...
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superstoned
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw many ppl judge really clever:

KDE sucks because it can do more than gnome
(i agree it has an overloaded interface in many places. you might call THAT bloath. but the fact it can do more just means it is BETTER, not worse. and because I DONT USE a certain app or function does not mean its useless, despite what some so-called usabillityexperts on the gnome mailinglists say)

Or: kde sucks because it looks like windows
yes, you can make it look like anything you want, but KDE has, by default, 1 panel, gnome has 2 (and i like it the gnome way, so that's how i have set up my kde environment). so kde is "just like windows". yep. sounds sane, doesn't it?

Look, both kde and gnome kick windows' ass, anytime. for some gnome is better, because it is dumbed down. for others, kde is better, because it is overloaded with features. unless gnome can keep their clean interface while gaining the technical excelence KDE has, or KDE can clean up their interface without losing flexibility and power, neither will be the best.

guess that's almost the only thing i said most ppl can agree with, isn't it?
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Kensai
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a pepsi vs. coke argument.
In my opinion and based on my daily usage with both. Gnome was far more stable. KDE crash on me something that not even gnome beta versions do. GTK looks better (opinion). KDE themes make kde slower and crash more often. Gnome has much more usability than kde. Having all those kthis kthat ksucks apps does not make kde any more usable thjan gnome. Gnome can do what kde can and more IMHO.8)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This is a pepsi vs. coke argument.


Agree. The choice between KDE or Gnome is a matter of opinion. But guys, say me, why is it such a crime to use KDE-Applications and Gnome-Applications at the same time? You can even make Gnome apps look like KDE-Apps, simply emerge

Code:
emerge x11-themes/qtpixmap x11-themes/gtk-qt-engine


And come on', don't tell me that your system get's slower or something. One of the very big advantages of linux in comparison to windows is that it doesn't get slower when you install more applications. You only need more disk-space, but when I look most of your signatures, and I see your power-computers, there will certainly be about ~1 or ~2 gigs to offer ;)

Quote:

In my opinion and based on my daily usage with both. Gnome was far more stable. KDE crash on me something that not even gnome beta versions do. GTK looks better (opinion). KDE themes make kde slower and crash more often. Gnome has much more usability than kde. Having all those kthis kthat ksucks apps does not make kde any more usable thjan gnome. Gnome can do what kde can and more IMHO.8)


Why isn't it then the most used desktop environment?
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superstoned
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COiN3D wrote:
Quote:
In my opinion and based on my daily usage with both. Gnome was far more stable. KDE crash on me something that not even gnome beta versions do. GTK looks better (opinion). KDE themes make kde slower and crash more often. Gnome has much more usability than kde. Having all those kthis kthat ksucks apps does not make kde any more usable thjan gnome. Gnome can do what kde can and more IMHO.8)


Why isn't it then the most used desktop environment?


wel, it IS his opinion, so its hard to argue. but I think there is alot KDE can do, and gnome can not. heck, there are even things windoze can do, and gnome can not! generally, KDE can do more than gnome, but the simple things might be a bit harder to do. altough the usabillity-difference is fading (i expect kde 3.5 to be almost as usable as gnome, and still - it has more features).

what kde can do and gnome can not - compare kwrite with gedit. konqueror DOES have spellcheck. does gaim have spellcheck? kopete does... and its the same as the one in kmail. and konqueror. THATS re-use of resources... sharing of pictures and addressinformation between kontact and Kopete. konqueror works with kontact with the RSS feature (klick to add them to aggregator, embedded in kontact or not). and full integration of gpg key signing and encryption in Kontact.

yes, a typical KDE-VS-OTHER DE's is kontact: seperate apps, working together as one. you can't remove the mail app from evolution, or the calendar function. if you only use the mail (and use the calender from firefox) well, you're screwed - the mail part of evolution WILL eat memory and (startup) time.

and I can select any piece of text and let kde say it.

Kpdf kicks Gpdf's ass (and acrobat's too, exept for some specific features).

Koffice might be a bit less mature, featurewise, than gnome-office, but it does have integration (and gnome-office is exactly what it looks like, and feels like: a bunch different apps thrown together).

compare amaroK to - what?

K3B?

Quanta is better than bluefish, imho, but that's subject of some debate I guess.

And, I can drag'n'drop from my taskbar to the pager, klick a button on the windowdecoration to make the window always stay on top (very very usefull, absolutely) or on all desktops, rmb -> change the transparancy of a window with a slider (and yes, all windows have transparancy and shadow etc, configurable in the window decoration dialogue, and its much more stable than xcompmgr here). I can assign a shortcut to a window. rework ALL toolbars in ALL applications. I have a fully configurable file-open (and close) dialogue. have a quicksearch-bar in my filebrowser (most ppl don't know that, but its there for ages). smooth scrolling in konqueror and kpdf. I can rename the tabs in konsole :D drag and drop of tabs between konqueror windows, the desktop (!) and the kicker. yes, i can drag a location from my desktop in konqueror, and it'll open. altough, this needs some bughunting, I see :D

anyway, if you don't use any off these, gnome might be for you. try windoze 95, if you want an even less flexible environment...
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codergeek42
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

superstoned wrote:
konqueror DOES have spellcheck. does gaim have spellcheck? kopete does... and its the same as the one in kmail. and konqueror. THATS re-use of resources...
Add "spell" to your USE flags and Gaim will use gtkspell for spell-checking, which is the same method used for spell-checking in AbiWord, Evolution, etc.
Quote:
sharing of pictures and addressinformation between kontact and Kopete.
Evolution and Gaim integrate quite well...
Quote:
full integration of gpg key signing and encryption in Kontact.
Evolution also has full GPG and PGP/MIME support...
Quote:

compare amaroK to - what?
Rhythmbox?
Quote:
K3B?
GnomeBaker?
Quote:
Quanta is better than bluefish, imho, but that's subject of some debate I guess.
I use gedit. :P

Mm I shoudl probably stop and let this thread get back on-topic...
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bgzee
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my take: I've used both, gnome actually more than kde. Personally I've found kde to be more configurable (gconfeditor vs kde's control center is a no brainer). KDE looks much better out of the box, is generally more cutting edge in terms of features (built in support for transset and xcompmgr is one example). The first run wizard allows you to configure behavior to act like windows, mac, or whatever you're used to. The initial look is like windows, whether or not you percieve that to be a bad thing is up to the individual, but these "linux purists" need to realize that if you don't like windows and want to migrate its users, you gotta put them into a comfortable familiar enviroment, something that kde does better than gnome. As far as bloat, just another issue of these linux purists/elitests wanting to see that not even a 1/4th of their ram is being used. Why? i dont know, whatever tickles your pickle. But from what ive seen in a lot of sigs on the forum, these people have gigs of ram and 3000+mhz processor... IF YOU GOT IT, USE IT.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
-Gtk looks better, qt sucks
-Konqueror is a joke nautilus is simple and clean



jajajajajajja, gtk sucks, it look bad, qt is better :)
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Kensai
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

COiN3D wrote:

Why isn't it then the most used desktop environment?

Prove me that kde is the most used DE. You can;t there is no studies and nothing that can prove that. Also if we base our logic like yours then windows is the best OS since is the most used.:wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
COiN3D wrote:

Why isn't it then the most used desktop environment?

Prove me that kde is the most used DE. You can;t there is no studies and nothing that can prove that. Also if we base our logic like yours then windows is the best OS since is the most used.:wink:


every poll on the web, exept for the osnews.com poll that only ran for 6 hours, until kde started to get more votes (it ran during the time only america was awake) will tell you kde has at least twice the users gnome has.

but proof? proof does not exist. for nothing. you can't even prove God exists! (and that was a joke).


BTW both amarok and Juk kick rythmbox's ass anytime everywhere.

btw2 - ok, i was wrong about gaim/spellcheck and gaim/evolution integration... and evolution/gpg. but K3B is the best cdburner for linux, ATM :D (and most other comments DO matter).
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Kensai
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL. Polls aren't world wide. Because kde people care to vote on a poll to defend kde becuase they feel kde needs lots of votes on a stupid poll. Gnome people and I'm included don't feel those votes are necesary I have never voted on a best DE poll. Those polls prove nothing is my point. Now on topic sneakyme66 what are your experiences so far with both?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
COiN3D wrote:

Why isn't it then the most used desktop environment?
Also if we base our logic like yours then windows is the best OS since is the most used.:wink:


Well, for the average computer user, it is the best OS.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kensai wrote:
LOL. Polls aren't world wide. Because kde people care to vote on a poll to defend kde becuase they feel kde needs lots of votes on a stupid poll. Gnome people and I'm included don't feel those votes are necesary I have never voted on a best DE poll. Those polls prove nothing is my point. Now on topic sneakyme66 what are your experiences so far with both?


many polls togheter DO prove a point. big and small, in almost every country, 90% of the polls give KDE 60% of the DE market. that DOES count, and yes, it is no proof.

it is IMPOSSIBLE to proof kde or gnome have more users, as you have to ask EVERY user what he/she uses. just like the polls for an election don't proof anything, even if you would ask give them to 50% of the population. but these polls can, statistically, give you a very good idea - if you ask 2000 users, well chosen, what they use, you can say with (i don't have the data, so its an educated guess) 95% certainty what DE is used most. and you will never reach 100% unless you ask all linux users. but 95 or 99% is enough for me...
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aidy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not the best OS for average people, you can't know that until there are SuSE/Ubuntu/Gentoo(?)/... boxes sold in average people shops! And as there is some company contracting the major pc manufacturers and forcing them to use their OS, I don't see this happening in at least 5 years... Normal people can't install whatever distro and are too lazy too learn just a liiittle bit of computers.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordMyth wrote:
It's not the best OS for average people, you can't know that until there are SuSE/Ubuntu/Gentoo(?)/... boxes sold in average people shops! And as there is some company contracting the major pc manufacturers and forcing them to use their OS, I don't see this happening in at least 5 years... Normal people can't install whatever distro and are too lazy too learn just a liiittle bit of computers.


Won't happen. People don't like having the responsibility of having to choose. Whether its between kde or gnome, gtk or qt, whatever--it really is above the average persons head. They want something they can take home, turn on, and get down to business (what ever the average person may do... listen to music, look at porn, instant message, etc). The greatest aspect of linux is also its biggest downfall, the ability to choose. Until someone releases a distro that uses a specific very stable linux kernel, a specific WM, a specific gui toolkit, a standard set of programs for every day use, people just wont do it.
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aidy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Ubuntu and SuSE do that, don't they?
What do you think of my new sig BTW? :D
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordMyth wrote:
Well Ubuntu and SuSE do that, don't they?
What do you think of my new sig BTW? :D


I'm not talking about a linux distro, im talking something more like what apple did with the MacOS. It was a peice of shit.... until they took an opensource platform (freebsd) and built an integrated user enviroment around it. Any linux distro is essentially just like the next, to install programs you either compile from source or find a package for your specific distro. To create a desktop operating system that could overtake windows would mean ditching distros based of this kernel and that window manager. It would mean taking the linux kernel and tightly integrating into to say xorg, kde, and other gnu tools, to the point where they were no longer seen as different entities but as a whole under a new operating system name.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

COiN3D wrote:
Kensai wrote:
COiN3D wrote:

Why isn't it then the most used desktop environment?
Also if we base our logic like yours then windows is the best OS since is the most used.:wink:


Well, for the average computer user, it is the best OS.

errrrr...... wrong again you can't prove that. I know lots of people who use Windows but don't like it and don't want to give linux a try because they think it is too difficult. ANd there are people who don't like windows that much but don't know about other operating systems. So think before speaking.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bgzee wrote:
LordMyth wrote:
Well Ubuntu and SuSE do that, don't they?
What do you think of my new sig BTW? :D


I'm not talking about a linux distro, im talking something more like what apple did with the MacOS. It was a peice of shit.... until they took an opensource platform (freebsd) and built an integrated user enviroment around it. Any linux distro is essentially just like the next, to install programs you either compile from source or find a package for your specific distro. To create a desktop operating system that could overtake windows would mean ditching distros based of this kernel and that window manager. It would mean taking the linux kernel and tightly integrating into to say xorg, kde, and other gnu tools, to the point where they were no longer seen as different entities but as a whole under a new operating system name.

You're talking bullshit. Have you ever TRIED Ubuntu or SuSE? You see nothing of any kernel, it looks like there is only the DE.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LordMyth wrote:
bgzee wrote:
LordMyth wrote:
Well Ubuntu and SuSE do that, don't they?
What do you think of my new sig BTW? :D


I'm not talking about a linux distro, im talking something more like what apple did with the MacOS. It was a peice of shit.... until they took an opensource platform (freebsd) and built an integrated user enviroment around it. Any linux distro is essentially just like the next, to install programs you either compile from source or find a package for your specific distro. To create a desktop operating system that could overtake windows would mean ditching distros based of this kernel and that window manager. It would mean taking the linux kernel and tightly integrating into to say xorg, kde, and other gnu tools, to the point where they were no longer seen as different entities but as a whole under a new operating system name.

You're talking bullshit. Have you ever TRIED Ubuntu or SuSE? You see nothing of any kernel, it looks like there is only the DE.

that's right for suse, but ubuntu still looks very text-ish.

if you like computers, think you can handle something new, but prefer everything graphically, go for suse.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ubuntu may be text-ish in the beginning, but after all the text you don't need to see text ever again!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People, please. No need for this KDE/GNOME flamewar in a support and discussion forum. KDE and GNOME both have their respective advantages and disadvantages but in the end it's all personal preference. I really like GNOME so I use GNOME. Others greatly prefer KDE, so they use KDE. If you don't like KDE and/or GNOME, then you can simply refrain from installing/using it (or them). Arguing about it simple wastes time, energy, and bandwidth. Can we please keep this thread on the original topic? ("convert... gnome to kde") Thanks...
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