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HeXiLeD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:34 am    Post subject: Gentoo Handbook "flame war" Reply with quote

Hello gentlemen.

Intro
Frist of all i have been using gentoo almost for a year. i have done at least 20 gentoo installs all from stage 1.
The frist time i installed gentoo was as stage1 and i was told to skip the bootstrap to make my life "better".
I have seen many noobs using stage1 and having no problems with that.
I have also read about many people that still prefer that stage and this includes some newbies.
I still prefer stage1 even on a pentium II
I also understand why stage1 is also seen as a "waste" of time, but not stage2

Personal notes:
I love gentoo so much that some guy once told me that i was brainwashed.
If we want stage3 on a source distro to avoid work... then we would have used vidalinux.
stage 3 = lazy gentoo install, not to call it something else "depreciative"...
I moved from debian for a few reasons, otherwise i would have gone with ubuntu if i wanted a "easy distro install" or maybe even fedora... :P

I am not the only one complaining about this, and my complain is more than just about the handbook; because if now the help for other stages is somehow gone; its a matter of time until those same stages are gone too.

The problem :
Quote:

"I can't find stage1 information in the Gentoo Handbook
Instructions on using a stage1 or stage2 tarball are now available in the Gentoo FAQ. A stage3 installation is the only supported installation as of now.



Today i was helping a newbie to install gentoo. so both us wasted 2h with it and we were both upset and i must say that i was extra upset because i stoped doing some stuff that i needed to do just to help him and when i asked him where was he on the handbook, things went wrong.

This new gentoo and linux user wanted to do a stage1 install and when we started talking he was doing a stage 3 while having downloaded a stage1 tarball.

So where is the problem ?
.... where is the help for stage1 & 2 on the new handbook ???

The NEW handbook.
STEP 5
Quote:
Making your Choice
The next step you need to perform is to install the stage3 tarball onto your system. You have the option of downloading the required tarball from the Internet or, if you are booted from one of the Gentoo Universal Installation CDs, copy it over from the CD itself. If you have a Universal CD and the stage you want to use is on the CD, downloading it from the Internet is just a waste of bandwidth as the stage files are the same. In most cases, the command uname -m can be used to help you decide which stage file to download.


1:
Quote:
The next step you need to perform is to install the stage3 tarball onto your system.

...YOU NEED ??
Q: where is the freedoom of choice here ?
as bill gates taken over the rest ?

2:
Quote:
... You have the option of downloading the required tarball...

Q: required by who ?? this handbook or the free choice of the user?

...and if required by the handbook WHY does this handbook says some thing like:
Quote:
Gentoo Linux <arch> Handbook


and not something like:
Gentoo Linux <arch> stage 3 Handbook

.... moving on ...
Quote:
....In most cases, the command uname -m can be used to help you decide which stage file to download...

Quote:
...You have the option of downloading...


So the option to pick another stage kinda exists, but NOT THE HELP for it in the same book.
Isnt this almost saying ...
"you need stage3 because you are not intelligent enough to deal with stage1 and 2; but hey.. you can get another stage from those mirrors; we just wont give you the help needed and explain how to use them here because we dont want to maintain that kind of handbook(with 2 extra simple pages) here anymore since we decided to make you life easier this way".

Now i ask ... whats the difficulty about it ?
in the old book we had something like :


Differences between stage1, stage2 e stage3
moving from stage1 to stage2
moving from stage2 to satge3


and now we have :
Quote:

6. Installing the Gentoo Base System
Content:

* Chrooting
* Configuring Portage

6.a. Chrooting


where is the "pick your stage"step ?
its only 1 extra html page. and those who wish to stick with stage 3 can still follow manual

and having this http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/faq.xml#stage12 on the side it just confuses a noob even more.
the old explanation was far more simple and easier.

---

and here we even have :
http://www.linuxforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3015&st=15

Quote:
Which stage do you install?
Stage 1 (who cares if it takes 3 days) [32.81%]
Stage 2 (I like to save a day with stock bootstrap and kernel) [7.81%]
Stage 3 (I need to get it installed and go) [28.13%]
GRP (Some one has taken the worry of compiling away from me) [9.38%]


In that url we can see people asking for stage 1 or 2 no matter what.
And the only complain i have seen around stage 1 or 2 is "its time consuming" and its not because "we dont understand it and its too complicated"

WHY moving gentoo install help only for stage 3 ?
Doing so will cause stage1 and 2 help and tarballs to be "depreciated" in time and not used anymore or as much as they were used before.

Why gentoo stage 3 only? To have it as VLOS ??
if its to make everyone life easier; Vidalinux uses a Gentoo stage 3 base along with a precompiled kernel (in Gentoo
you still have to compile your kernel even if you choose stage 3)


If the point is, if its to make the noob life easier then just give them vidalinux and merge with VLOS. It installs with a GUI and all its goes from stage 3; and heck.. the way i see it, i am just wondereing if next, the manual kernel help will be removed and we will stick with genkernel and we are left with source compiling because everything else is like other distros. :?

If going this way; i feel like pulling up a joke and saying something like "why spend so much time with an OS that just offers almost the same has ubuntu or vidalinux with the extra of compiling packages for more time ?" :twisted:

Why lose so much possible custom work that allows to optimize a system the even better ?
Sure its good and we must provide easier ways to install gentoo but that doesnt mean stoping the support of other custom ways.

Quote:

This not only makes it easier for us to maintain, but also for the user to see that the differences are slim, and that other architectures are not seen as a separate entities.


Removing 1 or 2 pages on the help makes you "magiclly" maintain the support better :?:
If the differences are slim why do we still have other stages available to download ?

Many other questions will rise with the fact that the help handbook install is now turned to stage3 only.
Among them we can ask why:
...minimal cd ?
...we still have stage 1 and 2 tarballs available do download in the mirrors
...not make stage3 a default install package

... and so on...

I also went look on my old gentoo install live cds for the "old " docs and found them to be the same as the current help for 2005.1.
the interesting thing is that i had these cds for a few months now.( since my gentoo install).
I guess "we" have been lucky to still have help for stage1 and 2 in the online handbook so far right ?

To end this ... i see no reason why those couple pages were removed, plus with the existing fact that those stages can still be used.
I was also told that "old" handbooks are still there, but not just "clickable"
Can some one provide the url here please? i have a n00b tomorrow going for stage1 install and refuses to do a stage3.
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allucid
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no reason to do a stage 1 or 2, just do a stage 3 and then 'emerge -e world', same effect, less headache.

Or you could volunteer to work on the handbook. Or you could post a stage 1 howto on the gentoo-wiki or DT&T section.

And lastly, you posted this in the wrong section and there is already a topic on this.
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the first time i installed Gentoo, it was on a P3. i had performed a Stage 3 install and everything was working fine.

then a Gentoo "expert" told me that I needed to reinstall and do a Stage 1 to have an "optimized" system. the install broke because of circular dependencies and i was turned off to Gentoo for over a month. I went back to SuSE.

after a month, i tried again, and Stage 1 was broken because of circular dependencies with perl. i spent a number of days in the forums trying to figure out how to fix the problem.

5 weeks after purging my Stage 3 install, I had finally completed a Stage 1 install and my system was no better off than it would have been if i had just stuck with my original Stage 3 install.

i still regret how much time i wasted because of bad advice from a Gentoo "expert". now i know better. and i try to help other people from making the same mistakes. but some people continue to believe that a stage 1 is better. oh well. :roll:

@allucid, i think your recommendation is pretty good -- if people are so upset that the Stage 1 install is no longer officially supported, they should get off of their butts and contribute to Gentoo by writing a Stage 1 installation guide instead of complaining. then they should provide support for it. only then will they realize why the releng guys had such a good idea... :wink:
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allucid
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the circular deps issue has been fixed with the current stage 1's (not sure, though). I, too, always did stage 1 installs the first few times until I ran into the circular deps issue. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Bob P"]
i still regret how much time i wasted because of bad advice from a Gentoo "expert".

and


every time i think about how much time i wasted because of shitty advice, i fantasize about choking the life out of that fucking Gentoo "expert".
[quote]

Oh no... My favourite gentoo expert has identity crisis :?

Now I have to delete my Jackass installs (several) because I can't be sure any more... I can feel an attack coming on and I am out of medication
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Triffid Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: I want _all_ my choices in my face, not just what is "b Reply with quote

A lot of people are going to miss the point of this whole thing.

This is not about "we shouldn't let people think stage 1 is better, get frustrated and go around complaining about how long it took"

This is not about "let's streamline the install as much as possible so n00bs can use gentoo"

This is about what makes gentoo as popular as it is - choice.

And the first choice was how early in the process we want to start tweaking things, looking at things, choosing things.

Yes! stage 3 is almost always the best place to start - but let's not take away the knowledge that it's not the only place to start.

One of the things that first gave me a hint as to what gentoo was about was, "would you like to bootstrap your system from scratch, or just get on with it? Here's some pros and cons of each method:"

That choice, and all the choices that follow are what sets gentoo apart.

Some people like the choice to do things the hard way or another way, even if they never ever use it.
Some people like to start from the very start, even if it's not the fastest or easiest way, because the process is more important than the result.
Some people like to know what they _can_ do, so they have a reference to understand how useful more efficient methods are, and what is lost to gain that efficiency.
Some people like to do things purely "for the hell of it".
And those people are often gentoo users for those exact reasons.

I know I am.

Do people have a choice if they don't even know there's a choice to be made?

The difference between a stage 1 install and a stage 3 then emerge system; emerge world is almost purely conceptual -- but its a concept that people value. It's a concept people want to have access to.

I vote for putting stage 1 and 2 instructions back in the handbook, even if under a banner that says "In 99.9% of cases you don't want to do it this way, but here's how to do it if you've an especially wierd setup, want to perform hackery from the word go, or are just plain bloody-minded -- click here to skip to stage 3 instructions, or read on for the long haul"

That way people know that they can choose where to start -- even if most will go the faster route.

Start taking away the visible choices, and gentoo will eventually become Just Another Linux Distribution.
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HeXiLeD
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Bob P allow me to :
Quote:

yes, a Stage 1 install is necessary if you're planning on bootstrapping for an architecture for which no Stage 3 tarball is available.

from one of your replies to a similar topic.

How about Intel EMT64's ? ...among others that no Stage 3 tarball is available...

EMTs seem to be the "thing" now for intel users...
and they have to stick with amd64 install. i guess this one one good reason to bootstrap.
and yes... i ve done emts.

--

Mr Triffid Hunter well said!
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omp
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this has been said before, but there is already a topic on this and this is in the wrong section.

Anyways, the stage1 instructions were removed from the handbook because many people were having problems due to it. How hard is it to click an extra link and follow the instructions on another page? They still exist.
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codergeek42
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from DT&T to Duplicate Threads. Please follow-up to What exactly happened to stage 1? And bootstrapping?. Thanks.
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