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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:38 am    Post subject: Gentoo PPC General Meeting - January 15th @ 19:00 UTC Reply with quote

We'll be holding a Gentoo PPC meeting on January 15th at 19:00 UTC in #gentoo-ppc-meeting on freenode (IRC). If you have a suggestion for a topic, please let us know! Everyone is welcome to attend, we'd really appreciate your input.

Current topics include:

1. The 2006.0 Release
2. Dev Activity (Who's alive?)
3. Open Bugs / PPC Bug Day?
4. Toolchain Updates (GCC 4.1?)
5. Some form of regular status reports
6. Hardware support status
7. 2006.0 Documentation Status
8. Open Floor

See you there!
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silian87
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is in dev activity included the HW support status? Like r300, airport-extreme and other ppc-specifical-hw support?

Thk ;-)
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, but it's now a topic. :)
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nope, but it's now a topic. :)


Ah ok! Thank you!
I think HW factor may be important for many people ;-).
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes it would be good to get a hardware update .... as well as where has that support gone, eg r300 support has gone into xorg releases from version 6.9.x. DRM config is the same as x86.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about documentation as a subject? There seems to be little documentation for the PPC side on things like wireless setup and networks
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would you like documented? I'm the PPC documentation lead, so let me know, but I'll add it as a topic anyway.

There's tons of documentation out there for the Airport/Orinoco cards, they've been around forever and the setup is the same as x86. As for AE, once the driver is a little more finished, I'll write up some more documentation. Regular wired networking is exactly the same as x86, the Gentoo network scripts work the same for all arches.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that nowhere does it say it is the same as normal cards. The cards being different and there being different setup tools would normally mean different setup.

I am starting to learn that the setup for quite a few things are the same but it is the lack of knowing which has it's own documentation and which is with the normal docs.

The documentation section should have a PPC section specifically for people tryng to find PPC related information. This should be the same for all the other archs' where configs, files and useability may be different.
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really agree with different cards having different setup procedures. If the card driver is in the kenrel, it works just like any other driver in the kernel. I would only expect to hear about it if there *was* a difference.

I think the PPC FAQ covers most of the actual PPC specific questions people have. If you have specific questions you'd like to see answered there, let me know.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am 100% new to PPC but far from new to Gentoo and computers so i took everything very carefully just in case i got things wrong, maybe i shouldn't have been so careful but.. meh.

It would be good to know when there is a difference though. At the moment we have a FAQ with 21 questions answered after installation and the only ways to get info after that on some very basic questions is IRC and the forums and the problem is that some of the questions are very basic and could be taken care of in the FAQ or a PPC section in the docs.

If i take for example my problems with me trying to find my (nonexistant) wireless card. These are the options currently given:
Quote:
Hardware Support
  • How can I configure my Airport card?
  • How can I configure my Airport Extreme card?
Thats great but how can i configure the wireless in my laptop? How am I to know that an Airport card is a wireless device? What is an Airport card? How do I know that I have one? How do i tell the difference between a normal wifi card and an airport card?

Personally I would expand that section a bit more like so:
Quote:
  • Hardware Support
    • Wireless Cards
      • Normal Wireless - IEEE 802.11b/g (wifi) cards
      • Airport Cards - A local area wireless networking system from Apple Computer based on the IEEE 802.11b (wifi) standard
      • Airport Extreme - A local area wireless networking system from Apple Computer based on the IEEE 802.11g (wifi) standard
        Q. How do I tell which one i have?
        A. blah blah foo, blah blah bar

Personally I haven't run into more problems so far but I can imagine that i might at some point. I can imagine that it is nearly impossible to second guess other people's problems.
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wireless configuration:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-ppc.xml?part=4&chap=4

To be honest, we do expect you to have some knowledge of the hardware sitting in front of you, or at least the wherewithal to find it. I'm not sure how this is any different from any of the other Gentoo guides. Imagine if the x86 team were asked to enumerate every single piece of hardware available, its functionality, and level of support! As for term "Airport", it has been used by Apple to denote wireless cards since 1999. I would expect that if you didn't know what it was, a quick google search for "Apple Airport" would find it pretty quickly.

That said, if you really think the FAQ would be improved by adding this type of material, it can be done and we'll discuss this at the meeting.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the PPC FAQ, it has a section about "I have a revision A or B iMac. I've replaced the hard drive with a larger one and now I can't boot into anything!"
It took me quite a bit of Googling to finally find out that my iMac 300 Blueberry is actually a Rev B iMac. It would be nice to have a quicky to explain how/where to find out the revision of your system if applicable to the document. I am completely new to PowerPC macs and have not used a Mac since OS 7.1 days. Not all of us with PPCs use the MacOS installed on them.

For that matter, some quicky thing on how to find out your relavent hardware information on OS 9/X or even the LiveCD would be good for those new to PPC but not new to Gentoo. For instance, does lspci work?

Also, in the x86 world, many video cards have 2.5/4/8/16/32/64/128/256MB video RAM. Several of the iMacs have 6MB ATI Rage cards. From my experience in x86 world, say sayonara to accelerated 3D, even though you can have it in MacOS. I have not found a blurb yet on this.

So far, in documentation, these are the only things that have pinged me thusfar.
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scoobydu
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit: will use debian.
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gringo
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
To be honest, we do expect you to have some knowledge of the hardware sitting in front of you, or at least the wherewithal to find it. I'm not sure how this is any different from any of the other Gentoo guides. Imagine if the x86 team were asked to enumerate every single piece of hardware available, its functionality, and level of support! As for term "Airport", it has been used by Apple to denote wireless cards since 1999. I would expect that if you didn't know what it was, a quick google search for "Apple Airport" would find it pretty quickly.


/me thinks so ... and i dont think wireless setup is that different form x86 world f.ex.

Will be in the meeting, im specially interested in what will offer ppc-users the new gcc 4.x.

cheers
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit:

Perhaps instead of explaining what each bit of hardware is, I could add a FAQ topic like this:

I know I've got a Mac, but what's inside?
Visit http://lowendmac.com/profiles.htm and click on your model to find detailed information about the hardware in your Mac.
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpsii:

Yes, lspci works, but only for devices connected to the PCI bus (obviously). Would the above change in the FAQ address your other concerns?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The above change would indeed address the hardware concerns. That way a new PPC user can educate themselves on their hardware's default devices without having to obtain and install OS 9/X.
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cokey
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseJX wrote:
cokehabit:

Perhaps instead of explaining what each bit of hardware is, I could add a FAQ topic like this:

I know I've got a Mac, but what's inside?
Visit http://lowendmac.com/profiles.htm and click on your model to find detailed information about the hardware in your Mac.
that would be the ideal kind of site to point to :D

All that is needed now is to know which parts there need specific drivers/setup instructions. With that site all you need to do is say something like
Quote:
all devices except the airport card can use the kernel drivers and therefore the setup for them is in the Gentoo handbook

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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, maybe I'm jaded, but I don't really see the point, If you've got a radeon card, there's already a FAQ entry. Sound has a FAQ entry. Wireless has a FAQ entry. The default settings as suggested by the PPC Install Handbook (make defconfig before doing any kernel configuration) already have every other required Mac device already configured. What's left?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseJX wrote:
Again, maybe I'm jaded, but I don't really see the point, If you've got a radeon card, there's already a FAQ entry. Sound has a FAQ entry. Wireless has a FAQ entry. The default settings as suggested by the PPC Install Handbook (make defconfig before doing any kernel configuration) already have every other required Mac device already configured. What's left?


What if I don't know if I have a radeon card? G4 Cube came with a Rage 128 or Rage 128 Pro. The G3 iMacs came with 6MB ATI cards of some sort (IIRC, Rage XLs). Gentoo will install on much more than just a Pegasos PPC or G4/G5 Power Mac or Powerbook. Some systems come with Nvidia cards. Just a word about being SOL as far as 3D acceleration would be a nice "oh-by-the-way".

It is not difficult to add a simple link or a dozen words to tip people off to information they may not be aware of as they are installing.
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-ppc-faq.xml#drm

I redid this section, but didn't rename the title, which I should do. It does say you're SOL if you have a nVidia card. And again, the default settings set by make defconfig are enough to set up basic 2D support on all cards.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not saying that we don't need it, but you two are the first to complain about it and I've been maintaining the documentation for a year now. :p
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoseJX wrote:
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-ppc-faq.xml#drm

I redid this section, but didn't rename the title, which I should do. It does say you're SOL if you have a nVidia card. And again, the default settings set by make defconfig are enough to set up basic 2D support on all cards.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not saying that we don't need it, but you two are the first to complain about it and I've been maintaining the documentation for a year now. :p


Thank you, kind sir!
:roll:

EDIT: I just had time to think it over... OMG! Me and cokehabit... lumped together... into a "you two are..." category. 8O
Didn't think we'd ever agree or be grouped together on anything... :lol:
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JoseJX
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I just had time to think it over... OMG! Me and cokehabit... lumped together... into a "you two are..." category. 8O
Didn't think we'd ever agree or be grouped together on anything... :lol:


Congratulations I think... :)

And although it might sound like it, I'm not trying to be difficult, really! I'm just the one who has to write it up and maintain it, so unless there's an actual need, I don't want to do the work. I'm lazy. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

personally, i think that everyone just thought you were too cool that they didn't want to say anything :D

mpsii wrote:
I just had time to think it over... OMG! Me and cokehabit... lumped together... into a "you two are..." category. 8O
Didn't think we'd ever agree or be grouped together on anything... :lol:
i know... People are going to wonder why i'm fraternising with people from florida... :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanna say that I'm on JoseJX's side, I don't see the need for the additions suggested by Cokehabit and mspii.
It's not obvious to find the FAQ list though, I think at some point in time a restructuring was done for accessing the documentation from the main site, but since then, I always need to search a bit till I can find http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml and from there go to the faq or the document I need.
The only thing that might be interesting to add to the FAQ is standard x86 hardware which will not work on a powerpc.. I think I once read that there can be problems with firmware for graphics cards, that you can't put an x86 graphics card in a powerpc? And maybe the FAQ should also mention that nvidia cards do not have 3d acceleration on powerpc?
Just 2 things that cross my mind, but I've always found the PPC documentation great, and actually all Gentoo documentation.
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