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Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal]
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Should XMMS be removed?
No
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 40%  [ 152 ]
Yes
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 55%  [ 209 ]
Not to vote.
4%
 4%  [ 17 ]
Total Votes : 378

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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:39 am    Post subject: Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal] Reply with quote

Ok, as alot of people know: XMMS is going down the drain, supposedly for having ~30 bugs, and that there is no upstream, and that it is old and crappy. The reason I could see: Some dev bitched, moaned, and complained until it was decided to remove it.

Now, as we all know, XMMS works, and works very well. I keep it running 24/7 on a workspace along side Gaim, where nothing else is. Many others have said that this has seriously broken their systems (or their systems are teetering), but it seems the devs don't give a shit (which honestly seems like a standard reply these days).

What is next? There are thousands of apps in Portage that are buggy, but yet they remove the one that has been a staple of Linux installs for ages. I've only heard of one player that could border on XMMS's greatness, that being mpd (which I still havn't quite worked on fixing up yet), and it doesn't seem to quite match up with the ease that is XMMS.

But what is next, I wonder. Someone going to get KDE removed because its buggy? Gnome because it restricts the user? What is next? Will it be YOUR favorite application?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal] Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
I've only heard of one player that could border on XMMS's greatness, that being mpd (which I still havn't quite worked on fixing up yet), and it doesn't seem to quite match up with the ease that is XMMS.

Have you looked at Audacious or BMPx? They're basically GTK+-2 rewrites of XMMS.
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arpunk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its not a big deal, if you still want XMMS then keep it on a local overlay or download the tarball and compile it. XMMS is no longer being developed, it has too many bugs and no one wants to mantain it, so it seems a good idea to remove it from portage. Its not the fact that the app is buggy, is that no one else wants to mantain it, and its pointless to keep working with XMMS when they are a lot of XMMS alike apps (and XMMS2 developent too) as far as i see it.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:25 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal] Reply with quote

StringCheesian wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
I've only heard of one player that could border on XMMS's greatness, that being mpd (which I still havn't quite worked on fixing up yet), and it doesn't seem to quite match up with the ease that is XMMS.

Have you looked at Audacious or BMPx? They're basically GTK+-2 rewrites of XMMS.
I hardmasked Audacious. They want to remove XMMS, they could have waited until XMMS2, and simply hardmasked it until then. I'm not going to use Audacious simply because if they think XMMS is so crappy (never had a moments trouble with it, myself), then I don't want to even bother with something they think is good.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let me be blunt here.

Gentoo gives YOU, yes YOU, the power to decide.

If you want to keep XMMS, then rescue it to /usr/local/portage. This isn't rocket science, there is no reason to get angry or upset. You are the person in control, and NOBODY is taking away your ability to use XMMS.

If they keyword, YOU unkeyword it.
If they mask, YOU unmask it.
If they delete it, YOU copy it into /usr/local/portage and get on with your life.

This is NOT hard, and only a LITTLE inconvenient at best.

The ONLY thing that is occuring is that Gentoo will no longer supply ebuilds for a package that is in their eyes broken.

Sheesh.
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arpunk wrote:
Its not a big deal, if you still want XMMS then keep it on a local overlay or download the tarball and compile it. XMMS is no longer being developed, it has too many bugs and no one wants to mantain it, so it seems a good idea to remove it from portage. Its not the fact that the app is buggy, is that no one else wants to mantain it, and its pointless to keep working with XMMS when they are a lot of XMMS alike apps (and XMMS2 developent too) as far as i see it.


The thing is: There are plenty of apps in Portage that aren't maintained. XMMS works as-is. Alot of people have used it for years. Requiring an overlay for something that is so beloved in Linux is just ridiculous. I wouldn't have complained too much if they would have waited for XMMS2, but they didn't.

If you remove a package simply because it isn't maintained, wouldn't Portage be very, very slim anyways?
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nenolod wrote:
Ok, let me be blunt here.

Gentoo gives YOU, yes YOU, the power to decide.

If you want to keep XMMS, then rescue it to /usr/local/portage. This isn't rocket science, there is no reason to get angry or upset. You are the person in control, and NOBODY is taking away your ability to use XMMS.

If they keyword, YOU unkeyword it.
If they mask, YOU unmask it.
If they delete it, YOU copy it into /usr/local/portage and get on with your life.

This is NOT hard, and only a LITTLE inconvenient at best.

The ONLY thing that is occuring is that Gentoo will no longer supply ebuilds for a package that is in their eyes broken.

Sheesh.


In their eyes. Nice. I guess if they thought the kernel was broken, they wouldn't supply one of those, either, and tell you to use the BSD kernel instead?
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nenolod
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
In their eyes. Nice. I guess if they thought the kernel was broken, they wouldn't supply one of those, either, and tell you to use the BSD kernel instead?


You're not good at this trolling thing, I'm sorry to tell you.
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arpunk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
The thing is: There are plenty of apps in Portage that aren't maintained. XMMS works as-is. Alot of people have used it for years. Requiring an overlay for something that is so beloved in Linux is just ridiculous. I wouldn't have complained too much if they would have waited for XMMS2, but they didn't.

If you remove a package simply because it isn't maintained, wouldn't Portage be very, very slim anyways?

Yea, but the devs are the one who mantain the XMMS ebuild, and if it comes a pain in the ass they can simply drop support for it, thats why we can have overlays. It doesnt matter if XMMS works as-is, its not the *only* music player in the linux world, and as neolod said, you are the one to decide what you want on your system, so bitching at devs its pointless. If you want to keep XMMS then keep it, but dont get pissed because you might have to type a few more commands over the console to keep XMMS in your system.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amid all the crying, moaning and hand-wringing over the demise of XMMS, what's the real impact of ripping it from the portage tree?

Answer: Not bloody much.

No, really. If you love XMMS and it's installed on your system, leave it alone. Stop screwing with it. It's old, it's buggy, it's being abandoned in favor of XMMS2--but so what? Until XMMS2 matures to your particular liking, just leave your working XMMS copy be. There are several ways to tell portage to do so.

Maintaining XMMS in portage doesn't mean maintaining just XMMS. It also means, potentially, futzing with XMMS for every change to every package that depends on, interacts with or is depended upon by XMMS. That is why it's beyond a huge pain to "just leave it around" until XMMS2 matures, even if Gentoo chose to ignore upstream from now on.

As others have noted, gone from portage doesn't mean GONE. You can unmerge the Gentoo-ed package, download a tarball, follow the install instructions and build the thing yourself, like any other FOSS package. It's Linux and FOSS, for Pete's sake. There are simple options other than portage.

Developers are mostly just ordinary hackers donating their time to maintain a distro for us. There are over 11,000 packages in the portage tree. There are somewhat fewer than 11,000 developers. It's rather ungrateful to complain rudely when they decide their time is used up or being wasted. Complain politely, fine. But as the Rolling Stones said, "You can't always get what you want."

Finally: do you think the maintainer lives under a rock, unaware of XMMS' popularity? All software reaches a point where it becomes too expensive to maintain. Try trusting, or at least respecting rather than vilifying, the people best positioned to recognize when that time has come.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
Alot of people have used it for years. Requiring an overlay for something that is so beloved in Linux is just ridiculous.

I have hated XMMS for a long time and found it to be one of the flakiest programs I have ever used.

Dralnu wrote:
I wouldn't have complained too much if they would have waited for XMMS2, but they didn't.

XMMS2 has been promised since I starting using Gentoo years ago!

Dralnu wrote:
If you remove a package simply because it isn't maintained, wouldn't Portage be very, very slim anyways?

As long as it compiles with the current packages stable in portage I have no problem leaving it in portage.
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mikegpitt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand what all these bugs people are talking about are. Are they bugs related to xmms integration in gentoo?

I assume the bugs must exist, but I have run xmms for years on my desktop without closing it, and have never had one problem with it crashing or not working properly.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikegpitt wrote:
I don't understand what all these bugs people are talking about are. Are they bugs related to xmms integration in gentoo?

In my case, just xmms itself. I admit I haven't touched it since the appearance of JUK. (Use amarok now)
I was turned off enough then to never even consider returning. I disliked the interface and it locked up and crashed constantly on several distros.

mikegpitt wrote:
I assume the bugs must exist, but I have run xmms for years on my desktop without closing it, and have never had one problem with it crashing or not working properly.

Its a weird phenomenon, I say the same thing about KDE which has been terrific for me, yet others constantly talk about issues. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Past ebuilds are also available from the webcvs, if you ever happen to lose one.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I think it is a risk to have unmaintained programs in Portage. Get rid of 'em all!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal] Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
The reason I could see: Some dev bitched, moaned, and complained until it was decided to remove it.

Wrong - it's not important how many devs bitch about something, the decision to support or drop some piece of software is up to the maintainer(s), who decided to mask xmms. That's it. No bitchfest.

Dralnu wrote:
Now, as we all know, XMMS works, and works very well. I keep it running 24/7 on a workspace along side Gaim, where nothing else is.

Xmms only works because of the lot of extra work the Gentoo devs put into it, which is exactly the reason why they do not want to support it any more.

Dralnu wrote:
Many others have said that this has seriously broken their systems (or their systems are teetering), but it seems the devs don't give a shit (which honestly seems like a standard reply these days).

FUD, slander. If the Gentoo devs are so evil, why don't you switch to Ubuntu? I hear they play with puppies all the time.

Dralnu wrote:
But what is next, I wonder. Someone going to get KDE removed because its buggy? Gnome because it restricts the user? What is next? Will it be YOUR favorite application?

If KDE or Gnome died upstream, used an obsolete toolkit and became a major source of annoyance for the developers after some years of inactivity, of course it would be removed. Btw, where's support for KDE 1.0, kernel 2.0.18 or gcc 2.95 in Gentoo? Oh wait, there is none.

I really have to say, you have done a great job of twisting the facts about the xmms removal in general - you don't even mentioned the fact that xmms uses gtk 1 - which is obsolete for ages. You also don't seem to be aware that there were plenty of discussions on gentoo-dev about removing xmms, and the removal has been pending for at least 6 months. During those 6 months no one (including you) has stepped up and offered to take over xmms, so the sound devs finally masked it because they don't have infinite time on their hands and xmms takes a lot more than all the other packages.

Btw, i still have xmms running here too, and personally i'm not too happy to see it go, but i fully support the decision to remove it.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I don't mind if it's going to be removed or not, but i think the devs could have been a bit more carefull.
Quote:

You also don't seem to be aware that there were plenty of discussions on gentoo-dev about removing xmms, and the removal has been pending for at least 6 months.

Might be, but gentoo-dev is not a place where all user hang out. Also for me it came as a surprise, first i thought i had a unlocky moment for syncing, but when xmms was still masked when i synced again, i checked the forums.
Just as a reminder: In the 2005.1 profile it was still default in the USE flags, which made mplayer and some kde packages depend on it, which killed my update (i am on 2006.1 now, but for some reason my update got killed by this, even with -xmms in the USE in make.conf).

I think that instead of masking xmms and searching for alternatives (audacious) and quickly porting plugins, it might be beter the other way around: Make sure there's a package capable of doing everything the old one can, and after that start a migration to the new package.

Best regards,
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using XMMS for several Years now, not long ago i decided to integrate the mplayer videoplayer in it and to use it as a playlistmanager for videos.
I never had issues with this program. And as i wantet to have a slim guibased mp3 player under xfce4 on my SGI Octane there was no other option as many programms are hardmasked (gnome is hardmasked) or you have to emerge kde which is not the best idea on this old machine.

I am sorry to hear that this program is not longer alive.
What if the ebuild-maintainer simply masked this program to make you realise that this program is going to leave in future, till xmms-2 is ready?


sorry for my bad english.


cu

Jochen
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal] Reply with quote

Dralnu wrote:
The reason I could see: Some dev bitched, moaned, and complained until it was decided to remove it.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Stop trolling.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Is this a sign for things to come? [XMMS Removal] Reply with quote

yngwin wrote:
Dralnu wrote:
The reason I could see: Some dev bitched, moaned, and complained until it was decided to remove it.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Stop trolling.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa4wdh wrote:
Just as a reminder: In the 2005.1 profile it was still default in the USE flags, which made mplayer and some kde packages depend on it, which killed my update (i am on 2006.1 now, but for some reason my update got killed by this, even with -xmms in the USE in make.conf).

Strange, it really should work at least with -xmms.

pa4wdh wrote:
I think that instead of masking xmms and searching for alternatives (audacious) and quickly porting plugins, it might be beter the other way around: Make sure there's a package capable of doing everything the old one can, and after that start a migration to the new package.

I agree it would be great if there had been an alternative that has 100% of all xmms features and plugins, but unluckily waiting until then may take a big amount of time.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pa4wdh wrote:
my update got killed by this, even with -xmms in the USE in make.conf


Code:
emerge -tavuDN world

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does everyone keep saying to wait until xmms2 comes out, xmms2 is going to be nothing like xmms, compleletely different. IF you want something simliar look at audacious or bmpx, though I am not sure how bmpx works, audacious actually works, it looks the same and it is actively develop, and if I am not mistaken even by some of the same devleopers, they were sick of xmms and it's horrible code and decided to make it better.

Try it, I bet your music still plays the same :)
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today I got kind of surprised when finding out that xmms was hard-masked. But upon reading it is no longer maintained and buggy (for other people, it's always been stable for me) I understand why it has been done. Thanks anyway for maintaining it for as long as you have.

I'm going to give Audacious a try. If I don't like it, I can always just put xmms in my own overlay. No problem.


It's not like the world is going to end because XMMS got masked...
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say good riddance. When I started using Gentoo I installed xmms soon after because I didn't know of better audio players. That's one small problem, i.e. people don't know of other similar applications. On the other hand there are so many audio and video players that it might be difficult to choose between them. After reading the forums and trying out amarok I've not looked back at xmms.

If someone wants to read about reasons for removing xmms go to planet Gentoo and read Diego's post about this issue. You dont need to go browse mailing lists. Planet Gentoo is a good place to see what the developers are about to do next.
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