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Estariol
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:46 am    Post subject: kde4-svn overlays for portage Reply with quote

Have anyone subj? Unfortunately i've made layman -d kde && layman -a kde after 17'th april and now have only ebuilds for paludis. May be someone have backup or old overlays .. :(
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creidiki
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's been ample warning of this.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: kde4-svn overlays for portage Reply with quote

Estariol wrote:
Have anyone subj? Unfortunately i've made layman -d kde && layman -a kde after 17'th april and now have only ebuilds for paludis. May be someone have backup or old overlays .. :(


The kde4 live-ebuilds have been paludis-ified so if you are trying to use them then they will require paludis (for now)

git://dev.gentooexperimental.org/kde-overlay.git

This has a de-paludisified ebuilds if you want to use these

Quote:

So, because I got bored, which seems to happen every now and then, I had a look at the overlay today. And I noticed one thing - there is absolutely no techincal reason to not use EAPI=1. As it happens I just had an editor nearby, and after about 15 minutes of stabbing things they were quite ... portagey. About 20 edits all in all to fix things that were not portage-compatible - and they make users migrate to an unsupported package manager for that? Meh, I say. Meh!


So it seems there was no reason to force paludis onto users except to force it onto users.

Quote:

There be it, have fun using it (and please don't make people unhappy by reporting errors and bugs in any official paludis channel, that will only make people angry. We'll have some mode of communication available soon ... )
P.S. Forcing people to migrate just because you can is a nice abuse of power. It's impolite, not needed and makes me want those responsible will have to use Windows98 at work for a looong time.



http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-04.html#e2008-04-20T23_58_33.txt




NOTE its not fully tested and support structure for these saner ebuilds isn't fully address yet
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: kde4-svn overlays for portage Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
git://dev.gentooexperimental.org/kde-overlay.git

This has a de-paludisified ebuilds if you want to use these

Ah yes, patrick's silly little jihad against Paludis.

Naib wrote:
Quote:

So, because I got bored, which seems to happen every now and then, I had a look at the overlay today. And I noticed one thing - there is absolutely no techincal reason to not use EAPI=1. As it happens I just had an editor nearby, and after about 15 minutes of stabbing things they were quite ... portagey. About 20 edits all in all to fix things that were not portage-compatible - and they make users migrate to an unsupported package manager for that? Meh, I say. Meh!

I find it rather hilarious that he says that after carefully removing all the USE-deps and replacing them with horrid built_with_use hacks (except for the ones he dropped entirely, of course). He also got rid of the suggested deps entirely, without so much as an elog as a replacement.

Naib wrote:
So it seems there was no reason to force paludis onto users except to force it onto users.
No-one's forcing anything on anyone. If you want to use the KDE overlay, or any other overlay for that matter, you of course need a package manager that supports the features the overlay uses, but anyone's free to add those features to their own favourite package manager if they choose.

Naib wrote:
http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-04.html#e2008-04-20T23_58_33.txt

Just the usual lies and pseudo-religious fundamentalism (the actual religious fundamentalism can be found in the post where he explains his hatred of Paludis developers by comparing us to those evil, unclean non-Christians).

Naib wrote:
saner ebuilds
LOL
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Ferdy
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That overlay being done by someone that was a Gentoo Developer who managed to screw up Gentoo's presence at FOSDEM once and didn't manage a single commit while he was a dev.

So you could trust his work, or trust the work done by the knowledgeable Gentoo/KDE people....

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.


exactly!
when kde4.1 goes into the tree the ebuilds have to be portage-compatable, so why make it incompatable now?
the need of paludis to use these ebuilds (when such a need isn't needed it seems) is just poor, at least the situation is improving
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.


O RLY?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.

Please stop repeating such ridiculous lies.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: kde4-svn overlays for portage Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
Naib wrote:
saner ebuilds
LOL

oh, this thread should be full of awesome.
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Berniyh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: kde4-svn overlays for portage Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
This has a de-paludisified ebuilds if you want to use these

I would rather call them insane.

Quote:
Quote:

So, because I got bored, which seems to happen every now and then, I had a look at the overlay today. And I noticed one thing - there is absolutely no techincal reason to not use EAPI=1. As it happens I just had an editor nearby, and after about 15 minutes of stabbing things they were quite ... portagey. About 20 edits all in all to fix things that were not portage-compatible - and they make users migrate to an unsupported package manager for that? Meh, I say. Meh!


So it seems there was no reason to force paludis onto users except to force it onto users.

Oh, there was. Just the fact, that something is somehow possible doesn't mean, that there aren't better ways.

Quote:
Quote:

There be it, have fun using it (and please don't make people unhappy by reporting errors and bugs in any official paludis channel, that will only make people angry. We'll have some mode of communication available soon ... )
P.S. Forcing people to migrate just because you can is a nice abuse of power. It's impolite, not needed and makes me want those responsible will have to use Windows98 at work for a looong time.



http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2008-04.html#e2008-04-20T23_58_33.txt

Especially don't report bugs about any of these ebuilds to the KDE overlay guys!

Quote:
NOTE its not fully tested and support structure for these saner ebuilds isn't fully address yet

These are nowhere near being sane. Nice joke.
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Berniyh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.


exactly!
when kde4.1 goes into the tree the ebuilds have to be portage-compatable, so why make it incompatable now?
the need of paludis to use these ebuilds (when such a need isn't needed it seems) is just poor, at least the situation is improving

You call _that_ an improvement?
You seem to have quite low standards. ^^
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.


exactly!
when kde4.1 goes into the tree the ebuilds have to be portage-compatable, so why make it incompatable now?
the need of paludis to use these ebuilds (when such a need isn't needed it seems) is just poor, at least the situation is improving


Or portage can implement the features needed by the Gentoo/KDE people before KDE-4.1 goes into the tree. I hear it is called kdebuild-1 or something like that.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.

Paludis isn't a one-way street at all and it's perfectly possible to go back to portage and your old portage configuration again. Notice how you don't have to change any of your portage configuration when switching to paludis so your claims about borked configs is rather silly tbh.

And nobody is forcing you to use any overlays either - the kde-svn overlay isn't official in any way and you're more than welcome to use the official kde ebuilds in the gentoo-x86 tree. The gentoo kde developers are just offering some features in the kde overlay that's not currently usable using portage - it's your decision whether you want to use it but certainly not your decision whether the gentoo kde developers should offer it or not.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.

Please stop repeating such ridiculous lies.


Well, you can't use -scm with Paludis in Portage compat mode, and you can't use Portage or Pkgcore with -scm installed (the latter bails out, the former might hose your system because it ignores already installed packages). Pretty much exactly what I said - in order to use the official package manager again, you have to a) remove -scm ebuilds, b) fix the configs that have been made incompatible by using Paludis (and I count "invalid atoms in world" as being incompatible, not to speak about the fact that you'd have to "backport" whatever change you did for Paludis in terms of useflags and mask to your portage config too).

You are welcome to disprove me by telling me how to use kde-svn with Paludis and still keep a working Portage at the same time.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.

Please stop repeating such ridiculous lies.


its only a lie if it isn't true
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ferdy wrote:
Or portage can implement the features needed by the Gentoo/KDE people before KDE-4.1 goes into the tree. I hear it is called kdebuild-1 or something like that.

It is called kdebuild-1 and it's rather unlikely that Portage and/or Pkgcore will support it.
Even if they do, I guess it won't be called kdebuild-1 anymore, but who knows.

Believe me, if kdebuilds would be allowed in the tree, there would be quite a few people who would like to use it because of several feature (use deps, ranged deps, labels...).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
dleverton wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
At least he allows us to continue using kde-svn without requiring the use of an incompatible package mangler that is a one-way street, because you can't go back to Portage afterwards. Not without removing kde-svn and trying to fix the b0rked configs, at least.

Please stop repeating such ridiculous lies.


its only a lie if it isn't true

Since it isn't true, it's a lie. ;)

It might require a bit more time then the step from Portage to Paludis, but that is only because Portage has less features for the config files. If you don't use those (list every package instead of sets in the keyword files etc.) it should be quite fast.
And calling config files "borked" because you don't understand them doesn't make this a bit more "true".
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kloeri wrote:
And nobody is forcing you to use any overlays either - the kde-svn overlay isn't official in any way and you're more than welcome to use the official kde ebuilds in the gentoo-x86 tree. The gentoo kde developers are just offering some features in the kde overlay that's not currently usable using portage - it's your decision whether you want to use it but certainly not your decision whether the gentoo kde developers should offer it or not.


Sure. It is also my decision to welcome people providing me with kde-svn ebuilds that work with the official package manager, regardless of how their track record in terms of commits is. I find it a shame that some of the people posting here use your argument to defend genkdesvn's enforcing of Paludis in their overlay, while at the same time getting down to a personal level and insulting and FUDing Patrick for providing his own overlay that works with Portage. Which, of course, he is as free to offer as are the gentoo kde developers with theirs.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
Pretty much exactly what I said - in order to use the official package manager again, you have to a) remove -scm ebuilds,

This is true, but pretty trivial - paludis -u --with-dependencies kde-base/kdelibs:kde-svn will get the vast majority of them, and any that are left over will be easy to identify.

Gaspode wrote:
b) fix the configs that have been made incompatible by using Paludis

Paludis doesn't make any configs incompatible.

Gaspode wrote:
(and I count "invalid atoms in world" as being incompatible,

Paludis doesn't add invalid atoms to world. If you choose, you can make it add things that aren't atoms (and before you complain, be aware portage 2.2 does that too, so no double-standards please). It doesn't do that without you asking it to, however, and they're trivial to remove if you change your mind.

Gaspode wrote:
not to speak about the fact that you'd have to "backport" whatever change you did for Paludis in terms of useflags and mask to your portage config too).

Most of the configuration that you're likely to be changing is in the same format or almost the same format (again, trivial to change) as portage, unless of course you choose to use additional paludis features, but in that case it's hardly paludis's fault that portage doesn't provide an equivalent.

Gaspode wrote:
You are welcome to disprove me by telling me how to use kde-svn with Paludis and still keep a working Portage at the same time.

The KDE ebuilds are in seperate slots, so there shouldn't be much harm in portage ignoring them. But really, trying to regularly use more than one package manager on the same system is only slightly less silly than trying to use multiple bootloaders.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
FUDing Patrick for providing his own overlay that works with Portage.

Assuming the overlay works and doesn't break people's systems, it is absolutely the least of patrick's crimes.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
while at the same time getting down to a personal level and insulting and FUDing Patrick for providing his own overlay that works with Portage


But it doesn't work and there is no FUD at all, you are welcome to check the facts anytime you want.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berniyh wrote:

Believe me, if kdebuilds would be allowed in the tree, there would be quite a few people who would like to use it because of several feature (use deps, ranged deps, labels...).


That may very well be possible. The (ethically) correct route to go would be to suggest these improvements in an official spec that is ratified by Gentoo Council and supported by all existing package managers. That would have the benefit of allowing other ebuilds to use these features as well in the official trees.

The route chosen instead of using a very popular overlay to shove the changes into user's **** without having them accepted officially is likely to produce not only averse reactions, but also probably preventing the good parts of the kdebuild-1 spec being officially accepted anytime soon too. Which is a pity. I'd call that burning down bridges, and I don't think this helps either Paludis Gentoo or anybody else.

But of course, you are free to do whatever you want in your overlay. Just don't complain about people reacting accordingly.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berniyh wrote:

And calling config files "borked" because you don't understand them doesn't make this a bit more "true".


Doesn't matter much if I understand them. Portage not understanding them, however, is a real problem. I've tried Paludis before, not even installing -scm or any fancy stuff, just using it in a normal way for a couple days, and trying Portage afterwards resulted in tons of warnings. Other people I know had to reinstall their box, since that seemed to be easier for them than manually fix the mess left over by going back.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the features there have been known to be useful for a long time. It is just that nobody has ever wanted to implement them in Portage (no wonder, though).

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