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Gaspode
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiFidk wrote:

ehm yes... since portage doesn't support it, but that was not the issue being discussed. The issue was the claim the paludis creates incompatible configuration files.


It does, unless you use it in a way that is not encouraged by the Paludis devs since it cripples Paludis. In the context of this thread, which evolves around the kdesvn overlay, clearly suggesting to use Paludis in a mode where it can't work with said overlay is not an appropriate solution. If you use Paludis as intended, it creates incompatible configuration files.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiFidk wrote:
Gaspode wrote:
HiFidk wrote:
@Naib

it's becoming pretty clear that you are talking about stuff you haven't tried to understand.

If you enable the portage USE flag on paludis, it will use portage config files in /etc/portage

This has been stated over and over again, still you keep on going about /etc/paludis being incopatible....


Yes, and the side-effect of this is that it also only uses Portage capabilities, which in particular means that you can NOT use the kde-svn overlay (or any -scm ebuild) with Paludis in Portage compat mode.


ehm yes... since portage doesn't support it, but that was not the issue being discussed. The issue was the claim the paludis creates incompatible configuration files.


no the issue was portage doesn't support it and hence the OP stating that the kde overlay now requires the use of paludis

Estariol wrote:
Have anyone subj? Unfortunately i've made layman -d kde && layman -a kde after 17'th april and now have only ebuilds for paludis. May be someone have backup or old overlays .. :(

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HiFidk wrote:
@Naib

it's becoming pretty clear that you are talking about stuff you haven't tried to understand.

If you enable the portage USE flag on paludis, it will use portage config files in /etc/portage

This has been stated over and over again, still you keep on going about /etc/paludis being incopatible....


can you use -scm with USE=portage with that?
because the thing is that is the roots of the problem -scm is NOT portage compatable, it was something that isn't in EAPI-1 (let alone -0) and is paludis-specific and if used AND then portage used it b0rks yr kde setup
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Berniyh
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
It's delaying things because the way certain people handle this matter pisses off other people, which is burning down bridges for cooperation. If all that mattered were the technical issues of the spec, and people would actually get together and discuss technical merits rather than trying to push their egos, it would probably be made official by now. The current way of handling things (on both sides, I might add) clearly does not help progress.

Nope. There isn't more ranting because the overlay uses kdebuild and nobody will not implement for example use deps, because if this overlay.
(There might be other reasons, though.)

Almost every complaints that I've seen yet came from users, not from devs. Most devs seem to either ignore it or they don't care.

Even at the last council meeting they only made clear, that kdebuild is not an official ebuild api (which nobody proposed anyway) and should not be part of the PMS and that's it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
can you use -scm with USE=portage with that?
because the thing is that is the roots of the problem -scm is NOT portage compatable, it was something that isn't in EAPI-1 (let alone -0) and is paludis-specific

Seems some people are trying to have their cake and eat it too... you can't have features that portage doesn't support in a way that's fully compatible with portage. It's just not going to work.

Naib wrote:
and if used AND then portage used it b0rks yr kde setup

No-one's presented any evidence of this. But really, you should just choose a package manager that supports the features you want, and then stick with it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berniyh wrote:

Almost every complaints that I've seen yet came from users, not from devs. Most devs seem to either ignore it or they don't care.

Now what would Gentoo be without the users? :p Also, judging from the flamewars going on, there seems to be much, well, "tension" between certain devs as well.

Berniyh wrote:

Even at the last council meeting they only made clear, that kdebuild is not an official ebuild api (which nobody proposed anyway) and should not be part of the PMS and that's it.


But it is part of the current PMS draft! And I don't think that will make timely ratification of the PMS by the Council more probable, do you?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
Now what would Gentoo be without the users?

A whole lot more peaceful?

Gaspode wrote:
But it is part of the current PMS draft! And I don't think that will make timely ratification of the PMS by the Council more probable, do you?

The council is quite free to ratify it without the kdebuild parts, which is conveniently possible by toggling a build-time conditional. Or alternatively, they could say "we declare that this is a definition of what kdebuild-1 is", without implying anything about where it can be used, or which package managers are expected to support it.

[EDIT: fixed quoting]


Last edited by dleverton on Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:

Seems some people are trying to have their cake and eat it too... you can't have features that portage doesn't support in a way that's fully compatible with portage. It's just not going to work.
[...]
But really, you should just choose a package manager that supports the features you want, and then stick with it.


So, could you please tell me again why "Paludis is not compatible to Portage" and "using Paludis is a one-way street" are outright lies, if you say so yourself now?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
So, could you please tell me again why "Paludis is not compatible to Portage"

I'm not sure what exactly that statement is supposed to mean.

Gaspode wrote:
and "using Paludis is a one-way street" are outright lies, if you say so yourself now?

I didn't say any such thing. I did say that you should pick a package manager and stick with it, but that means it's silly to keep jumping between them all the time, not that you must never migrate. And anyway, "should" is just advice, it doesn't mean it's impossible to do otherwise.
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Naib
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
Naib wrote:
can you use -scm with USE=portage with that?
because the thing is that is the roots of the problem -scm is NOT portage compatable, it was something that isn't in EAPI-1 (let alone -0) and is paludis-specific

Seems some people are trying to have their cake and eat it too... you can't have features that portage doesn't support in a way that's fully compatible with portage. It's just not going to work.


And here is the problem
Portage is the ONLY supported package manager, it is the only package manager supported in #gentoo
pkgcore is a drop-in replacement for portage and can work side-by-side (thus any possible pkgcore issues can be check with a emerge)
USE=portage on paludis is a dropin replacement for portage and can work side-by-side (as far as I have tested in one of my chroots and what has been said, if what has been said is to be believed).

USE=-portage on paludis is NOT portage compatable and as such its use results in an un-supported distribution. The whole kdebuild thread needs to be taken off these forums because it isn't a simple case as unsupported software anymore, its a case of unsupported system as well


ERGO anything sort of portage compatablity doesn't belong here and should be moved to OTW



dleverton wrote:

Naib wrote:
and if used AND then portage used it b0rks yr kde setup

No-one's presented any evidence of this. But really, you should just choose a package manager that supports the features you want, and then stick with it.

Oh I will just wait, but I don't see the point because you just throw out things that don't meet with yr thinking...
NUDGE benchmarks...NUDGE
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
The whole kdebuild thread needs to be taken off these forums because it isn't a simple case as unsupported software anymore, its a case of unsupported system as well


ERGO anything sort of portage compatablity doesn't belong here and should be moved to OTW



that is just pathetic...

and by the way: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/kde/kdebuild-1.xml

it's official allright
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kdebuild-1 is an official and supported Gentoo project. Stop spreading FUD and lies.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDEBUILD might be an "official" gentoo project

but the use of an unsupported packagemanager for its use produces a system that is non-gentoo support compatable

sure dev's can do what they like in that overlay BUT those ebuild's won't enter the official tree in that state because the official package manager doesn't support what is in those ebuilds
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
Berniyh wrote:

Almost every complaints that I've seen yet came from users, not from devs. Most devs seem to either ignore it or they don't care.

Now what would Gentoo be without the users? :p Also, judging from the flamewars going on, there seems to be much, well, "tension" between certain devs as well.

Huh? What has this to do with users?

You were trying to say, that kdebuild features might be delayed because they are in kdebuild and that is up to the devs, not to the users. So please stop mixing stuff up.
And most of the users are satisfied with the situation. So are we doing everything against users? I don't think so.

Quote:
Berniyh wrote:

Even at the last council meeting they only made clear, that kdebuild is not an official ebuild api (which nobody proposed anyway) and should not be part of the PMS and that's it.


But it is part of the current PMS draft! And I don't think that will make timely ratification of the PMS by the Council more probable, do you?

Again, that has nothing to do with it. Please really read the council meeting and you will understand that.
Again, nobody proposed kdebuild to be in the tree. It's just for the KDE overlay, not more and not less.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paludis is a fat moaning mess whatever.
why don't the paludis guys fix up a new distribution where
paludis would be the package manager?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
KDEBUILD might be an "official" gentoo project

but the use of an unsupported packagemanager for its use produces a system that is non-gentoo support compatable

sure dev's can do what they like in that overlay BUT those ebuild's won't enter the official tree in that state because the official package manager doesn't support what is in those ebuilds


You see... you can repeat that as much as you want. We already showed you how kdebuild is an official project and, as such, the thread is perfectly located.

Stop spreading FUD and lies.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Portage is the ONLY supported package manager, it is the only package manager supported in #gentoo

From what I've seen of #gentoo, I'd consider that to be a feature of Paludis.

Naib wrote:
pkgcore is a drop-in replacement for portage and can work side-by-side

For some value of "work".

Naib wrote:
as such its use results in an un-supported distribution. The whole kdebuild thread needs to be taken off these forums because it isn't a simple case as unsupported software anymore, its a case of unsupported system as well

Completely wrong.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
USE=-portage on paludis is NOT portage compatable and as such its use results in an un-supported distribution. The whole kdebuild thread needs to be taken off these forums because it isn't a simple case as unsupported software anymore, its a case of unsupported system as well

HAhahahaha.
You realize, that you are in the "Unsupported Software" forums?
And btw, the KDE overlay was never supported by Gentoo. It is a completely experimental overlay.
Try filing a bug about the KDE overlay (doesn't matter if it is about kdebuilds or normal ebuilds) and see what you get...

And it doesn't matter, that you are trying to tell me now, that the complete system is unsupported, because we really don't force anyone to install the overlay and there even is a warning ("Use at your own risk.").

BTW, this would also mean, that everyone who uses gcc snapshots (or any other software, that is not supported but might influence the system) should be kicked out of gentoo. Really?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tranquilcool wrote:
paludis is a fat moaning mess whatever.

If you could post your complaints in coherent English, I might be able to refute them, but alas it seems this is not the case.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gaspode wrote:
Also, judging from the flamewars going on, there seems to be much, well, "tension" between certain devs as well.

How many current Gentoo devs did you think responded here? How many of those suggested that not waiting another year for portage to grow these features was a bad idea?

Naib wrote:
And here is the problem
Portage is the ONLY supported package manager, it is the only package manager supported in #gentoo

Just because the #gentoo ops are idiots doesn't mean we have to be too. As mentioned by others kdebuild-1 is an official Gentoo/KDE subproject. We, the devs doing the actual work, support both paludis and our own kdebuild-1 ebuilds.

And funnily enough we aren't mindless morons who can't read an error message and determine whose bug it is without trying it with three identically configured, different package managers and comparing the results praying that the one doing something different from the others is the one doing it wrongly.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
sure dev's can do what they like in that overlay BUT those ebuild's won't enter the official tree in that state because the official package manager doesn't support what is in those ebuilds

Nobody ever said, that kdebuild will go in the tree. How hard is it to understand that?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berniyh wrote:
Naib wrote:
USE=-portage on paludis is NOT portage compatable and as such its use results in an un-supported distribution. The whole kdebuild thread needs to be taken off these forums because it isn't a simple case as unsupported software anymore, its a case of unsupported system as well

HAhahahaha.
You realize, that you are in the "Unsupported Software" forums?
And btw, the KDE overlay was never supported by Gentoo. It is a completely experimental overlay.
Try filing a bug about the KDE overlay (doesn't matter if it is about kdebuilds or normal ebuilds) and see what you get...

And it doesn't matter, that you are trying to tell me now, that the complete system is unsupported, because we really don't force anyone to install the overlay and there even is a warning ("Use at your own risk.").

BTW, this would also mean, that everyone who uses gcc snapshots (or any other software, that is not supported but might influence the system) should be kicked out of gentoo. Really?


what wrong with using a gcc snapshot and reporting it here in unsupported software when using portage?

using an incompatable package manager in an incompatable state and also using gentoo forums is questionable

why isn't there a paludis forums on the paludis website?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
why isn't there a paludis forums on the paludis website?

Paludis has mailing lists, but no forums because forums attract idiots who only care about their postcount and the 'community' rather than about being useful and getting things done.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
what wrong with using a gcc snapshot and reporting it here in unsupported software when using portage?

using an incompatable package manager in an incompatable state and also using gentoo forums is questionable

why isn't there a paludis forums on the paludis website?

GCC is just as fundamental for Gentoo as the Package Manager is.
You realize, that Gentoo is a source distribution, right?

If everything related to Paludis should be killed from the Forums, even in "Unsupported Software", why has it been accepted to be in the tree?
And it is even marked ~arch. And it's not in package.mask!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*

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