Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Should I try pludis?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Unsupported Software
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
paddlaren
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 97
Location: Hörby, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Should I try pludis? Reply with quote

Hi!

I am looking into emerging the kde4-live overlay to my system as I like to try out the KDE 4.1 Beta. Doing so forces me into using paludis instead of portage and this is a little scary. I have a vague hitch if I like to switch back but cannot find it. Also I happen to like the emerge command and after some years with gentoo I am pretty used to it.

My question is if paludis and portage (i.e the emerge command) can coexist so that I can use paludis for the kde4-stuff and portage for the rest. If they do not, will it be a messy thing to move back to old safe portage if I like? I have found no information of the procedure.

Regards,
Erik
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kollin
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Posts: 1137
Location: Sofia/Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did u check this thread https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-694231.html
_________________
"Dear Enemy: may the Lord hate you and all your kind, may you be turned orange in hue, and may your head fall off at an awkward moment."
"Linux is like a wigwam - no windows, no gates, apache inside..."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thargor
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Bamberg/Germany

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

paludis and portage can somehow coexist, but as soon as you install something using paludis that is not recognized by portage, things will break.
If you for example install the -scm version of kde from the overlay, portage will think that no kde is installed and it could happen that it then tries to install the normal kde-4.0, because something else has it as dependency, leading to two versions of kde installed, which will most likely not work.

So you either have to completely switch to paludis or use the kdesvn-portage overlay (also available from layman), which doesn't require paludis
_________________
Ideas are bulletproof
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thargor wrote:
If you for example install the -scm version of kde from the overlay, portage will think that no kde is installed and it could happen that it then tries to install the normal kde-4.0, because something else has it as dependency, leading to two versions of kde installed, which will most likely not work.

http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/slotting/index.html :roll:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Tao
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Should I try pludis? Reply with quote

paddlaren wrote:
My question is if paludis and portage (i.e the emerge command) can coexist so that I can use paludis for the kde4-stuff and portage for the rest. If they do not, will it be a messy thing to move back to old safe portage if I like?
As soon as you start with paludis you will loose all interest in emerge command.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Need4Speed
Guru
Guru


Joined: 06 Jun 2004
Posts: 497

PostPosted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paludis makes working with overlays MUCH easier. It does take a little while to get used to the commands and it may not be as polished as portage, but once you get used to it, you'll really appreciate it's improved power and precision.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thargor
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Bamberg/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
Thargor wrote:
If you for example install the -scm version of kde from the overlay, portage will think that no kde is installed and it could happen that it then tries to install the normal kde-4.0, because something else has it as dependency, leading to two versions of kde installed, which will most likely not work.

http://devmanual.gentoo.org/general-concepts/slotting/index.html :roll:


So portage will recognize /var/db/pkg/kde-base/kde-scm as a valid atom?
_________________
Ideas are bulletproof
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thargor wrote:
So portage will recognize /var/db/pkg/kde-base/kde-scm as a valid atom?

What are you talking about?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thargor
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Bamberg/Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I know, portage ignores invalid things in /var/db/pkg and thinks of directories without a version as invalid.
Have not tried that myself through.
And parts of the vdb being ignored could lead file collisions.

Correct me if I am wrong.
_________________
Ideas are bulletproof
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thargor wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong.

Did you read what I wrote?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thargor
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Bamberg/Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you tell me what the general concept of slotting has to do with PV being missing for an atom and a directory in the vdb not containing an ebuild recognized by portage?

Anyway, I want to end this discussion here, as it doesn't seem to lead anywhere.
Feel free to clarify your points, I won't argue with you anymore since it seems pretty useless to me as you refuse to bring any evidence or even tell others what you want to say.
Didn't expect something else from a paludis dev through, as all paludis devs I've talked to are like this. (That's a personal opinion)
_________________
Ideas are bulletproof
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thargor wrote:
Did you tell me what the general concept of slotting has to do with PV being missing for an atom and a directory in the vdb not containing an ebuild recognized by portage?

I told you of the ridiculousness of the phrase "leading to two versions of kde installed, which will most likely not work".

Thargor wrote:
Didn't expect something else from a paludis dev through, as all paludis devs I've talked to are like this. (That's a personal opinion)

And now you resort to personal attacks, and admit that you already hate Paludis. Surprise surprise. :roll:
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thargor
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Bamberg/Germany

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could have said that earlier, that would have saved both of us some time ;)

And I don't hate paludis, althrough I don't like it. I just find it harder to use and I'm fine with portage for now.
About the rest: That wasn't meant as an attack.
I just found myself noticing that some paludis devs only give one link and expect others who aren't that much into PMs to understand what they want to say.
_________________
Ideas are bulletproof
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mr. Tao
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 147

PostPosted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I used to think that paludis is something complicated to use and under influence of public meaning as well as some hasrshly formulated statements on paludis site I avoided it for quite a while. Then came the inevitable moment and I decided to really try it. It took me like 30 minutes to go through guides on paludis site and migrate to paludis. The procedure was smooth and easy and I do not regret. Whenever I had a problem with configuration I asked in support thread where I got valuable advice, so from my experiece, paludis devs are kind and helpfull people. Although I configured paludis to coexist with portage, I haven't seriously used emerge command since then.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ferringb
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 355
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
Thargor wrote:
Did you tell me what the general concept of slotting has to do with PV being missing for an atom and a directory in the vdb not containing an ebuild recognized by portage?

I told you of the ridiculousness of the phrase "leading to two versions of kde installed, which will most likely not work".

Thargor wrote:
Didn't expect something else from a paludis dev through, as all paludis devs I've talked to are like this. (That's a personal opinion)

And now you resort to personal attacks, and admit that you already hate Paludis. Surprise surprise. :roll:

Ironically enough, Thargor is right. Simple enough scenario;

1) merge a -scm build w/ paludis, say kde.
2) via portage, do a world upgrade. portage goes to try and fullfill world pkgset, specifically, tries to ensure that latest/greatest kde is merged. Because paludis has put a non standard extension into the vdb combined w/ portage ignoring non-standard vdb entries, portage thinks that there is no version of kde installed (slotting doesn't matter if it can't see the cpv in the vdb).
3) portage builds kde, installs it. If you're lucky, you've just got a hella conflict on disk that is fugly, but not destructive. If you're unlucky, you've just trashed your DE.
4) ...
5) profit. I think.

As far as I know, the only that manager that gets it right and protects against the scenario above is pkgcore- if it sees an entry in the vdb it can't handle, it doesn't spew warnings- it stops flat out w/ an error indicating why. The reasoning is simple- ignoring entries from the vdb enables on disk pkg corruption to occur.

So yes, Thargor *does* understand slotting, and yes, (s)he pointed out a valid scenario. Suspect you knew that however ;)

Cheers.
_________________
I don't want to be buried in a pet cemetery. ~Ramones
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ferringb wrote:
2) via portage, do a world upgrade. portage goes to try and fullfill world pkgset, specifically, tries to ensure that latest/greatest kde is merged. Because paludis has put a non standard extension into the vdb combined w/ portage ignoring non-standard vdb entries, portage thinks that there is no version of kde installed (slotting doesn't matter if it can't see the cpv in the vdb).
3) portage builds kde, installs it. If you're lucky, you've just got a hella conflict on disk that is fugly, but not destructive. If you're unlucky, you've just trashed your DE.

Slotting does matter because slotted ebuilds are designed to install files in different places.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Berniyh
l33t
l33t


Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 677

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ferringb wrote:
dleverton wrote:
Thargor wrote:
Did you tell me what the general concept of slotting has to do with PV being missing for an atom and a directory in the vdb not containing an ebuild recognized by portage?

I told you of the ridiculousness of the phrase "leading to two versions of kde installed, which will most likely not work".

Thargor wrote:
Didn't expect something else from a paludis dev through, as all paludis devs I've talked to are like this. (That's a personal opinion)

And now you resort to personal attacks, and admit that you already hate Paludis. Surprise surprise. :roll:

Ironically enough, Thargor is right. Simple enough scenario;

1) merge a -scm build w/ paludis, say kde.
2) via portage, do a world upgrade. portage goes to try and fullfill world pkgset, specifically, tries to ensure that latest/greatest kde is merged. Because paludis has put a non standard extension into the vdb combined w/ portage ignoring non-standard vdb entries, portage thinks that there is no version of kde installed (slotting doesn't matter if it can't see the cpv in the vdb).
3) portage builds kde, installs it. If you're lucky, you've just got a hella conflict on disk that is fugly, but not destructive. If you're unlucky, you've just trashed your DE.
4) ...
5) profit. I think.

As far as I know, the only that manager that gets it right and protects against the scenario above is pkgcore- if it sees an entry in the vdb it can't handle, it doesn't spew warnings- it stops flat out w/ an error indicating why. The reasoning is simple- ignoring entries from the vdb enables on disk pkg corruption to occur.

So yes, Thargor *does* understand slotting, and yes, (s)he pointed out a valid scenario. Suspect you knew that however ;)

Cheers.

This can only happen, if you install the kdebuilds with Paludis and after that, the -9999 ebuilds from the other overlay.
And to be honest, if you do that, then you should be shot. :P
Because it is quite clear, that these two overlays try to provide the same.

Besides, we (as in the Genkdesvn overlay maintainers) support only our overlay, and no other overlay.
If somebody installs ebuilds from another overlay. that cause any damage (be it, because Portage messed up because of invalid db entries or because of wrecked ebuilds), there is nothing we can do about that. Overlays are experimental, so using them with care is expected.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ferringb
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 355
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
ferringb wrote:
2) via portage, do a world upgrade. portage goes to try and fullfill world pkgset, specifically, tries to ensure that latest/greatest kde is merged. Because paludis has put a non standard extension into the vdb combined w/ portage ignoring non-standard vdb entries, portage thinks that there is no version of kde installed (slotting doesn't matter if it can't see the cpv in the vdb).
3) portage builds kde, installs it. If you're lucky, you've just got a hella conflict on disk that is fugly, but not destructive. If you're unlucky, you've just trashed your DE.

Slotting does matter because slotted ebuilds are designed to install files in different places.

Not all ebuilds are slotted; issue still exists (substitute openoffice if you want to argue over names)...
_________________
I don't want to be buried in a pet cemetery. ~Ramones
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ferringb wrote:
Not all ebuilds are slotted; issue still exists (substitute openoffice if you want to argue over names)...

I wasn't aware there were -scm ebuilds for openoffice in the kde overlay.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thargor
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 23 Dec 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Bamberg/Germany

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just want to summarize a bit, to check if i got everything right now:

If everything in the genkdesvn overlay and the official tree is probably slotted and doesn't have file-collisions (in the case of kde that means everything goes to /usr/kde/${PV}), then dleverton is totaly right.

But if that isn't the case (maybe someone @ upstream just had a typo in a commit), or some ebuild installs the same files as a kdebuild-1, then it can break.
In general, when you use an alternative PM with features not supported by portage, then things can go bad. (e.g. a -scm version for whatever ebuild + a normal ebuild in the same slot.)
_________________
Ideas are bulletproof
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thargor wrote:
In general, when you use an alternative PM with features not supported by portage, then things can go bad. (e.g. a -scm version for whatever ebuild + a normal ebuild in the same slot.)

In that case you can pay attention to portage's warnings and use package.provided (but not with pkgcore, apparently, because it thinks it's the user's mother).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ferringb
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 03 Apr 2003
Posts: 355
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dleverton wrote:
ferringb wrote:
Not all ebuilds are slotted; issue still exists (substitute openoffice if you want to argue over names)...

I wasn't aware there were -scm ebuilds for openoffice in the kde overlay.

Either you're a retard, or you're intentionally dodging the point- via allowing -scm *anywhere* (which paludis does), the issue exists regardless of using kde overlay (a seperate eapi), or using a standard one that has the paludis incompatible extension.

As to "pkgcore acting like a mother", hey, you want to advocate corrupting on disk pkgs, go nuts. Know which route I prefer.
_________________
I don't want to be buried in a pet cemetery. ~Ramones
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dleverton
Guru
Guru


Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 517

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ferringb wrote:
As to "pkgcore acting like a mother", hey, you want to advocate corrupting on disk pkgs, go nuts. Know which route I prefer.

I advocate letting the user make his own, informed, decisions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Unsupported Software All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum