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neenee
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

worry not. i do not mind any of this. i will not
change the way i type in chat and on boards.

i do find the replies quite interesting, though
perhaps a moderator would be so kind as to
split this thread into on-topic and off-topic
replies, creating a new thread for the off-
topic ones with a small link to my first post to
illustrate what the discussion is about?

kind regards.
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wilburpan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neenee wrote:
i really do not like to use caps in posts :|

I think that the issue is that a new topic in Documentation, Tips & Tricks is not just an ordinary post. It is one thing to use all small letters in replying to a thread. It is another thing to not use conventional grammar/spelling in a post that is obviously intended for a wide audience.
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neenee
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, if there is such a problem with me not using capitals,
i'd almost feel my posts are unwanted here. but since no
others on any other board have complained about how i
write my posts, i will just see this as a phase i have to go
through before people stop commenting on it.

apologies to those who find my posts an insult to the
english language; i will try not to post anything you will
have to read and steer clear of posting in this section of
the board.

kind regards.
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Xiderpunk
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks neenee for the guide,

*Off Topic*
personally speaking.. I think it's rude for others to point out grammatical, punctuation errors. Anyway as far as I am concerned the content of posts is what counts, not how it is written.

Those that do pick up on such things, need to be less anal.
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FourARSEDSheep
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

does anyone know a nice way to get these fonts working in KDE?

thanks
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razamatan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok... i'm gonna weigh in on this talk about not using caps, b/c i don't use caps when i do email.... saves a keystroke of (shift). ppl have said, "then why the hell do you do the ....'s?" simple... i do that when i think or to inflect stronger pauses.

another reason i'm weighing in is b/c i'm a grad student studying ai & cognitive science, currently focusing on the domain of natural language processing (nlp).

the "removing spaces" analogy is a poor one because "spaces between words" is a syntax that is very important in semantic processing for both humans and nlp algorithms (i was a psych major, too as an undergrad). however, capitalization is hardly (note: i didn't say "not") necessary for semantic processing. eastern languages like japanese, chinese, korean, etc. don't even have the notion of "capitals", but it appears that people who use those languages can communicate perfectly well.

to furthur show that capitals are hardly necessary, let's switch modalities to auditory communication. do you pronounce a capitalized word differently than if it was in lowercase?

so, to summarize: capitals are used primarily for disambiguation and semantic cueing for proper nouns. the sole reason why ppl capitalize the first word in a sentence was only for visual clarity beyond the period. but in the word processed world (where there should be 2 spaces between a period that marks the end of a sentence and a new sentence), you really don't need to capitalize it. you can't confuse initials like e. e. cummings and ends of sentences, like this. right? :)

QED.
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razamatan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually... now that i looked at the html'ed version of that post, it turned all my double spaces to a single space. html doesn't handle the notion of whitespace too well. another grievance on markup languages.

i could do
Code:
& n b s p; (minus the spaces between)
to do a space, but who wants to hit 4 keys for 1 thing?
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ben_h
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've got the choice of putting two spaces after the end of a sentence, or using capitals properly, why not just go with the capitals? Both take an extra keypress, and frakly, it's not all that much trouble to hold the SHIFT key for a second while you hit a letter.

neenee, none of this was intended as abuse I'm pretty sure, but as constructive criticism. If you're going to be writing documents for a general audience, then I think it's fair when people comment that the punctuation and formatting is malformed.

But I think the main issue is that this is the "thin end of the wedge" -- I'm not trying to claim that your post was unintelligible. It would have been easier to read if it were formatted better, but it wasn't imposible.

The real issue is, IMO, kids who are going through school now completely surrounded by electronic devices which either correct spelling for them, meaning that they never learn to do it themselves, or encourage word mangling (too -> 2, you -> u, etc). Unless something is done about this, then within a decade or three, no one will be able to write properly.

Moreover, It's already happening. If I read through my local paper (The Courier Mail; it's crap, but still), then I find no end of spelling and grammar errors in both articles and advertisements. It really gets on my nerves, and I think it's a serious issue.
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undrwater
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2003 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Moreover, It's already happening. If I read through my local paper (The Courier Mail; it's crap, but still), then I find no end of spelling and grammar errors in both articles and advertisements. It really gets on my nerves, and I think it's a serious issue.


depends on your perspective. linguists (and maybe razamatan too) believe that language is dynamic, and that the changes are natural. as a matter of fact, the generation preceding mine has continuously criticized MY use of english. the importance is semantics. (how did we get here?)

in programming, syntax is extremely important and sloppiness just doesn't get parsed, humans parse much better than a computer though and can be more forgiving of missing syntax elements.

my 2 cents 4 u :wink:

razamatan: where are you studying? that was a direction i was going to head once apon a time.
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razamatan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

undrwater wrote:
Quote:
Moreover, It's already happening. If I read through my local paper (The Courier Mail; it's crap, but still), then I find no end of spelling and grammar errors in both articles and advertisements. It really gets on my nerves, and I think it's a serious issue.


depends on your perspective. linguists (and maybe razamatan too) believe that language is dynamic, and that the changes are natural. as a matter of fact, the generation preceding mine has continuously criticized MY use of english. the importance is semantics. (how did we get here?)

in programming, syntax is extremely important and sloppiness just doesn't get parsed, humans parse much better than a computer though and can be more forgiving of missing syntax elements.

my 2 cents 4 u :wink:

razamatan: where are you studying? that was a direction i was going to head once apon a time.


i'm at the u. of michigan.

@benhoskings

holding down a key (shift) is more strenuous on a possible carpel tunnel case (i type too much). hehe... that was a joke.... sorta... i did have to switch to a "natural" keyboard b/c i would get these shooting pains in my wrists.

omitting capitals doesn't compare to improper grammar and spelling errors. i agree that some school kids these days aren't practicing proper english, but you don't see me writing all leet. well... sometimes, when i feel like being stupid. to remedy this problem, parents shouldn't let their children use computers for homework until they are well into high school. and never, ever let them get on the internet until they show proficiency in proper english. ;)
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The Mountain Man
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People say, "even w/o proper caps and punc my post can stil be red." This is true, and while it may be "good enough" for basic communication, why settle for good enough when you can strive for excellence? If you're going to take the time to render your thoughts into written form, why not strive to make it as easy to read as possible rather than encouraging people to skip over your posts because they get tired of trying to make sense of your non-standard use of the written word?

To put it more frankly, if you can't be bothered to write properly then I can't be bothered to read what you have to say.
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neenee
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but in the end, you did bother to take
the time to reply. and i doubt you re-
plied to something you did not read.

thank you for your time and your con-
structive reply.
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IshThe5th
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please people, capitalization is completely insignificant for what neenee needed to convey to the audience. The purpose of the post was to get across as simply as possible the method by which people may improve fonts on their systems. I think nazamatan made an excellent point with the fact that you do not pronounce capitalization in speech, yet speech is perfectly comprehendible. On the other hand, slurring together words and skipping spaces certainly makes sentences incredibly more difficult to interpret; that is a completely inappropriate comparision. I would argue that the usage of words such as "w/o" and "punc" and mispelled words such as "red" also decrease the legibility of a sentence. But I fail to understand how lack of capitalization makes a post any less comprehendible. I use it out of habit, but I have just as easy of a time reading a post without capitalization as I do reading one that makes use of it.

Quote:
why not strive to make it as easy to read as possible rather than encouraging people to skip over your posts because they get tired of trying to make sense of your non-standard use of the written word?


I'm sorry... but to be honest, it was extremely easy to make sense of neenee's post. All though this forum may be different from the rest in that people should generally make their posts as legible as possible, I don't think that every standard in proper written English is required. Only those standards that make the posts clear to the reader. This forum is a place for dialogue rather than a collection of formal written works.
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rewt_rawt
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:09 pm    Post subject: Anyway... Reply with quote

Anyway...

does anyone know a nice way to get these fonts working in KDE?

-Tom M
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ebrostig
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I DON'T KNOW WHY IT IS SO DIFFICULT TO USE A MIX OF UPPER AND LOWER CASE WHEN WRITING.

I FIND IT SLOPPY WHEN A USER IGNORES BASIC RULES OF WRITING JUST TO MAKE HIM OR HERSELF MORE INTERESTING AND MORE 1337.

WHY IS IT A PROBLEM TO USE UPPER AND LOWER CASE? IT TAKES AN EXTRA KEY PRESS! WOOW! i'M JUST BAFFELED.

ERIK
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neenee
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i will quote myself, since it seems you did not read the
thread before posting:

i enjoy the small things i can change when writing online
without being berated for it too much; it gives me a feeling
of freedom in a sense.


that is my reason for typing how i do. i am not attempting
to make myself more interesting and more '1337' as you
put it, nor am i not using capitals because i find using them
to be 'so difficult'.

as for the usage of upper and lower case being a problem:

the only problem i see is that people feeling strongly about
proper casing and the english language in general frown
upon what i enjoy when it comes to typing.

if i would mind pressing or holding keys, i would probably
not post as much as i do.

i think that covers your questions.

have a nice day.

ps. was there really necessary to reply in only capitals? it
makes me wonder if you yourself are not a user attempting
'to make him or herself more interesting and more 1337'..
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irf2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2003 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zhenlin wrote:
Much better... But, for some reason, I
Code:

use bindist || append-flags "${CFLAGS} -DTT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER"


Sorry I think you got it wrong.
The correct use flag is "-bindist" and not "bindist "
The reason it worked for you is because because
you apended "-DTT_CONFIG_OPTION_BYTECODE_INTERPRETER" to your CFLAGS.
There is no need to apend anything to the CFLAGS if
your USE flags contains "-bindist".
Since there are many packages which use the freetype
source, it's a good idea to edit the /etc/make.conf
file and add "-bindist" to the USE flags.
HTH
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neenee wrote:
hmm.. as for increasing readability of my posts;
i already have split my posts up in sections and
used some colors.. i really do not like to use caps
in posts :|


Laziness & an uncaring attitude RE: others' cares, is a common trait these days.

Whether you care to admit it to yourself or not, there is a valid reason for caps...and taking the time to make things more easily readable by others.
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neenee
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for your constructive reply :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Anyway... Reply with quote

rewt_rawt wrote:
Anyway...

does anyone know a nice way to get these fonts working in KDE?

-Tom M


hello people ?
someone please answer him.

i like to know it too.
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Tazmanian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neenee wrote:
ps. was there really necessary to reply in only capitals? it
makes me wonder if you yourself are not a user attempting
'to make him or herself more interesting and more 1337'..

I think it was to contrast with your typing in all lowercase. Why not type in all caps too? :wink:
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Tazmanian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooray for off-topicness! :wink: (Perhaps the moderator(s) should really do something about this.... I can see this going on for a while.)

mlang wrote:
But when I write things that will be read by other people, like, for example, a post such as this, I think it important to present yourself clearly and in a standard way. Wrapping lines at ~50 characters and writing without caps at all, even when they are nescessary, don't fit into that category.

First, wrapping lines at ~50 characters actually improves readability. This is the exact reason newspapers and magazines print in columns. If you count, you'll notice they wrap at ~60 characters.

If we want to be anal, let's be anal. :wink: The "yourself" in the quote above should have been a "myself".

So, yeah, I'm in the anal camp. Capitalization is good, but I can forgive its absence. Actually, as an interesting historical note, capitalization is being used less and less in English. 18th century documents, for example, are riddled full of capital letters.

Frequent spelling and grammatical mistakes, however, bug the heck out of me when they are made by a native speaker of English. Like typographical errors, they just indicate complete laziness with no respect for the reader.

My two cents.


Last edited by Tazmanian on Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tazmanian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bennerstul wrote:
Quote:
Well, in terms of readability...it *is* standard English to capitalize the first letter of each sentence


are you calling e.e. cummings a bad writer? ;)

Actually, E. E. Cummings capitalized his name correctly.

Source: Norman Friedman. Journal of the E. E. Cummings Society. Spring 1, 1992.
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Tazmanian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, can you tell I just found this thread? :wink:

razamatan wrote:
to furthur show that capitals are hardly necessary, let's switch modalities to auditory communication. do you pronounce a capitalized word differently than if it was in lowercase?

The view that there is no difference between the written word and the spoken word is a flawed one. (Example follows.)

razamatan wrote:
the sole reason why ppl capitalize the first word in a sentence was only for visual clarity beyond the period. but in the word processed world (where there should be 2 spaces between a period that marks the end of a sentence and a new sentence), you really don't need to capitalize it.

I claim that you do. Starting a sentence with a capital letter distinguishes the beginning of the sentence far better than a simple period and double space. The start of a sentence usually denotes the start of a new idea, and thus, is important. Capitalization allows readers (especially those who are quickly skimming) to have a far easier time identifying the start of each sentence.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tazmanian wrote:
Heh, can you tell I just found this thread? :wink:

razamatan wrote:
to furthur show that capitals are hardly necessary, let's switch modalities to auditory communication. do you pronounce a capitalized word differently than if it was in lowercase?

The view that there is no difference between the written word and the spoken word is a flawed one. (Example follows.)

razamatan wrote:
the sole reason why ppl capitalize the first word in a sentence was only for visual clarity beyond the period. but in the word processed world (where there should be 2 spaces between a period that marks the end of a sentence and a new sentence), you really don't need to capitalize it.

I claim that you do. Starting a sentence with a capital letter distinguishes the beginning of the sentence far better than a simple period and double space. The start of a sentence usually denotes the start of a new idea, and thus, is important. Capitalization allows readers (especially those who are quickly skimming) to have a far easier time identifying the start of each sentence.


Would you PLEASE stop that !
All of you should stop it !

go to the official playground here: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum.php?f=10
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