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A Portage with binary packages available?
Great!
52%
 52%  [ 152 ]
Sucks!
24%
 24%  [ 71 ]
Don't really care
22%
 22%  [ 65 ]
Total Votes : 288

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GeneralKane
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would not be worth it and due to the versatile nature of portage I think just using a binary package system should solve that problem. The USE variables are definitely a plus
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semiSfear
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but I don't have time to read the whole thread, so this question/post might be a dupe.

Isn't Gentoo all about compiling your packages? So why would I wan't a binary portage for? Change distro to Debian if you wan't binary portage (portage like). Only good binary package in portage is openoffice-bin. Doesn't the Gentoo team have enough to do already? No no, the extra energy/time on investing in a bin portage should be spend on bug-fixes etc etc on the current portage/packages.

The Gentoo team already work their buts off to satesfy us. Props to the Gentoo team for their hard work, and thank you for giving us this great distro!
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nahpets
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I started using Linux a year ago, and went from Mandrake, Redhat, Mandrake, Gentoo. Portage is why I came over; everything you need is in a single place, unlike Mdk and RH, where you have to get RPMs from all over the place. As good as Portage is, it should really have a binary tree.

80%+ ot users probably use simple flags like "-mcpu=pentium4 -O3 -pipe", so why force everyone to compile themselves? I'm running Gentoo on two machines; a PIII-866 and a P4-2.8G. I don't mind compiling on the P4, but the P3 is so damn slow... I did an "emerge world" the other day, and it broke everything. I had to wip my root partition and re-install. I would have loved a binary tree...

Mandrake/Redhat install time = 45 minutes.
Gentoo install time = hours and hours
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pilla
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nahpets wrote:

Mandrake/Redhat install time = 45 minutes.
Gentoo install time = hours and hours


But in the end of a Mandrake/Red Hat install you only have Mandrake or Red Hat :)
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nahpets
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just saying that a fast way to install Gentoo would be great incase your system breaks and you have to re-install your big libraries like glibc, xfree, kde. In the normal case, you let KDE 3.2 compile while you use kde 3.1, but if EVERYTHING is broken, your computer is useless for days...

nahpets

PS:Mandrake isn't so bad, it's good for newbies. It's the RPMs that made me switch.
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Achilles
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think having a binary portage is a great idea. I don't always want to compile my own packages, but I love everything else that gentoo has to offer (i.e. the support, portage).
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DuF
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2003 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2 good thing of gentoo is to compile for your PC and to have USE, with USE when you want a package with some features as IPv6 capabilities for apache you use the USE, with binary package.
SO I don't want it for portage, only some big binary like OpenOffice, but that's all...
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deathbaz
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being able to maintain a large number of machines from a binary repository would be advantageous. Even if gentoo didn't distribute binaries but added the functionality to portage to cope with maintaining machines from such a repository would be good.

I've been experimenting with the -G (getbinpkgonly) option to autoinstall a large number of homogeneous machines (software wise) and it works fine, but the maintenance is a bit of a problem at the moment (although this may be due to problems with a specific package I'm having trouble with).

If gentoo is going to be used in large institutions I think the ability for portage to handle binaries as well as it handles installation from source is a must. Whether gentoo provides these binaries or not is another matter altogether.
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tomchuk
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2003 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been thinking about how it would be possible to mainatain a binary repository with packages for x86, ~x86, different USE variables and different GCC optimizations. There just isn't a way to do this on Gentoo unless you use a system that other distro's use which is versions. Gentoo 1.4 used x version of gcc, y version of glibc, z version of OpenSSL, etc. Gentoo 1.5 sould use version 1 of gcc, b of glibc, c of openssl, etc. When you throw binary package into the mix they must be built in a controlled environment - yet the average Gentoo box is anything but.

So what that comes down to is the need to maintain a huge amount of packages that take into acount gcc optimizations, other package and library versions , use flags, etc. You can simplify the problem by saying that ~arch users probably aren't the same type of people who are going to be using binary packages, and besides, maintaing binaries for unstable packages would be nearly inpossible anyway. So you're left with stable package users. We can then take a bit of a leap and say that if you're running an up-to-date x86 system your build environment will be, with the exception of USE flags and -march settings will be nearly identical to the next person's.

Alright, so now we're looking at maintaining one, maybe 2 versions for every package - much more manageable than maintaining binaries for everything in portage. But that's still compunded by USE settings and -march settings. Which means there are still so many permutations of packages for the same version that it makes storing, maintaining and distributing them an impossibility.

So here's what is needed to make a binary portage realizable:
1. people to maintain the packages
2. people to build the packages
3. boxes to build the packages on
4. servers to store the packages
5. bandwidth to deliver the packages

That's a lot of people, a lot of hardware and a crapload of bandwidth. But wait - we've got thousands of gentoo users who are basically building packages anyways, who maintain their systems anyways, who have boxes to build the packages on, have drives to store the packages on, and many who have a little spare bandwidth to serve the packages. Enter the idea: Using a P2P netwok for something besides stealing music.

What would happen is that Joe or Judy Gentoo user who wanted to help out the community would set a flag in make.conf activating --buildpkg and turning on what ammounts to a p2p client that interfaces portage. From then on every package that Joe or Judy emerges will be built into a package, stored in PKGDIR, and an entry with all the relevant build information along with an md5sum for the package would be added to a database. Every sync of the portage tree would also sync the list of packages that Joe or Judy have available along with the info and md5sum. To make it more useful, setting the flag in make.conf would also mean dropping compile flags to a standard 686 build (-mcpu=i686 -O2 -pipe -fommit-frame-pointer).

So now you've got a repository of compatible packages at your fingertips with the only difference being USE flags. And while this may be a problem for something like Mozilla where there will be dozens of variations based on USE flags, something like Epiphany would only have 2 variations.

Now here's Bill who wants a system built nice and fast. He need some way of specifying USE variables for the packages he would like but something a little better than the USE string in make.conf is needed. He edits use.conf where on each line there is a USE variable he puts a + after all the USE variables that he needs, a - after all the USE variables he doesn't want and the ones with neither a + or a - are optional.

Here are a couple lines from his use.conf:
+gnome
nls
python
aalib
perl
-doc
jpeg
png
tiff

So he types "emerge -K gimp" and the portage-integrated p2p client sends out a search for the latest stable gimp package as long as it was compiled with gnome and without doc. It turns out that Judy and 40 other Gentoo users have the Gimp package Bill is trying to install and have each set a 2KB/s upstream cap on the portage p2p activity.

So without maintaining central builds, servers, etc Bill has quick and easy access to a pre-built binary package that will work on his system. After he's got the Gimp installed his portage client then shares the package he downloaded.

A little extra security could be built into the model by using pgp keys to sign a package you build - as other people start using packages you build they will assign a positive or negative rating to your package. The p2p servers would store user's ratings. If Bill so desires he can set the minimum rating that a package builder must attain in order to have their package installed on his system.

So let's say Judy does something funky with gcc and then procedes to build a bunch of stuff and distribute it. Every time somebody installs one of her broken packages they give her a negative rating. So Judy now has a -200 rating. Bill sets a minimum of 50 and as such will download and install Joe's build because Joe has never produced a bad package and has a +500 rating.

Anyways, it's getting late and I just wanted to put my thoughts out there. I'm sure there are problems in the above scenerio, but from where I'm sitting it seems there are fewer than with a lot of other schemes to make a workable binary portage. So shoot me down, make suggestions, add stuff, whatever.
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deathbaz
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tomchuk wrote:
Enter the idea: Using a P2P netwok for something besides stealing music.


Sounds like an almost perfect use for freenet. The use of signed subspace keys would allow users to obtain only binaries off those they "trust", and the USE flags could be used to reference content hash keys which point to the actual binaries. The disk space and bandwidth load would be shared across freenet and as the package versions increased, the request for the older packages would decline and they'd eventually disappear.
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bruunb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is also another way of producing the rating-p2p system.

I'v been using rh since 5.1 and all the way through to 9 and switched 2 days ago... so I'm pretty new, but on rh I usualy install the base system and then install the software that I use eg. apache/php/mysql/licq/etc. etc.

A lot of the time I reinstall because the "make uninstall" never works for me - don't ask :-)

But what I've found out is that when doing a "configure --some-option=XXX && make && make install" produces what I want, but later I'd like some new feature that requires --some-other-option installed and I can reuse the old compiled source tree by doing a new "configure --some-option=XXX --some-other-option=YYY && make && make install" and it only takes 1/10th of the time to recompile, because it is only the compiled files that need change and new files that need to be compiled.

So the question goes - why not base the binary portage on precompiled ebuilds that have only a minimum af USE flags eg. cpu=i686/cpu=athlon-xp etc. and then let emerge/ebuild create the rest of the configure options and compile/merge - that way it'l only take a short time to compile "from scratch" and still enabling the basic "default" settings for a binary-package and keeping up with "what Gentoo realy is"

Compiler Optimization - Yes
USE flags - Yes
Portage - Yes

Just a mental meld down from a readthrough of this thread because I'm pretty hooked on Gentoo and I'm working on a project that will be disclosed sometime in the future where a binary portage tree like the above described would make it very feaseable (spelling!) for the project.

The p2p network is great, but if you take a look at the net you'll se a lot of rpm's and deb's that have been contributed by other people for a piece of software and the software maintainers are usualy very glad to have binary packages on their site for different distributions since that enables their software to be used and popolated even more than only a source package...
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gsiener
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think tomchuk and bruunb definitely have this idea nailed pretty well. I've seen other threads with people saying it won't work because of firewalls and bandwidth limitations, corporate users won't want to open their systems up to that etc.

I think that all of these limitations can be avoided pretty easily, a factor is just making sure portage will be "smart" about sensing a problem (ie the gcc that built this is not sane/current) so that people aren't running renegade packages put out by some guy who thinks he's funny (I don't understand it either, but it definitely happens).

Also, perhaps bit torrent would be a better match than freenet? Seems like the current torrent client is much better about not hogging cpu/crashing cable modems/routers and it's very very good at what it does (get files fast from lots of sources).
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asimon
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

semiSfear wrote:

Isn't Gentoo all about compiling your packages?


No, it isn't. Acording to Gentoo's Chief Architect and founder Daniel Robbins, Gentoo is about giving the user a distributions which "allow this user to do what he or she wants to do, without getting in the way." And this of course includes users who want binary packages (and we all know very well that there are various practical reasons for this). Gentoo's philosophy is and never was to exclude them.

In his mail What Gentoo is all about from 16 Sep 2003 to gentoo-core Daniel Robbins speaks about what Gentoo is about and even speaks about philosophical and practical reasons for binary packages. Sad that this mail hasn't got any prominent place on www.gentoo.org but it was forwarded to gentoo-devel and should be in the mailing list archives.
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