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Belliash
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:21 pm    Post subject: Gentoo - binary Reply with quote

Hi,

As all we know, emerge allows to install binary packages.
I would like to ask why there are no servers with binary packages available? Let's forget now about USE flags ;)

I very like Gentoo, but its sometimes very hard to keep whole system up-to-date, especially when You dont have much time to update it daily, or weekly, or when You need to upgrade about half from all installed packages. Another problem have laptop users, especially in summer...

Due to that and more i wonder why there are still no binary packages available...
Let's see Gentoo, portage, emerge... all we have now with faster packages installation method...

In my opinion Gentoo is much better than Arch or Debian (all of them are based on rollin-release model). But the only advantage of them is that users dont need to rebuild packages... - they can, but dont have too... And i think Gentoo should also give the choice. I specifi mirror with binaries, or mirror with sources. Or add new param to FEATURES or sth... whatever...

What do You think about this?
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forkbomb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Arch is an interesting case. It's definitely got the fastest package manager I've used (though Arch was the distro I tried after my stint with Fedora - sometimes yum can make any package manager look fast).

But as for Gentoo, I figure when I'm building or rebuilding, it doesn't mean my machine is useless. I can still use it. I've pared back my makeopts slightly, though, because I noticed having 4 was making my machine very sluggish while building.
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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Gentoo - binary Reply with quote

Belliash wrote:
Hi,

As all we know, emerge allows to install binary packages.
I would like to ask why there are no servers with binary packages available? Let's forget now about USE flags ;)


Hehe, yeah, let's forget about them, then how do you suggest that binary packages should be built? That would be mostly the equivalent to dump a red hat rpm package manually in the middle of your install and hoping that it will work...

Quote:
I very like Gentoo, but its sometimes very hard to keep whole system up-to-date, especially when You dont have much time to update it daily, or weekly, or when You need to upgrade about half from all installed packages. Another problem have laptop users, especially in summer...


ccache and distcc can be used to -somewhat- overcome this. Besides that, some of the really big packages do have binaries in portage. And, about the time... gcc doesn't require your presence to operate, and that's the long part. Anyway, as someone said above, you can continue working while emerge is running.

Quote:
Due to that and more i wonder why there are still no binary packages available...


Because it's impossible. You can't simply "forget" about USE flags. If you do that then Gentoo is no longer Gentoo, what would be the difference with any other binary distro then?

This has come a number of times before, but it's simply not realistic. You would need suitable binaries for every possible combination, or a way to build then on the fly remotely. And for that, some kind of infrastructure is needed, and that means lots and lots of money to build a cluster that can build all the packages you need on the fly with your CFLAGS and taking your USEs into account.

Quote:
Let's see Gentoo, portage, emerge... all we have now with faster packages installation method...


You completely miss the point. If you take off USEs and build generic packages then you lose all those advantages. There's no Gentoo, no portage, no emerge. That would be mandriva, ubuntu or whatever you want. But not Gentoo. You could very well use fedora and alias yum to emerge then.
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I'm building everything on my lappy (1.73 P dual core with 2GB ram) with no distcc or icecream and I'm rather happy with that. I did the same on my dual PIII 550MHz with little over 400MB 100MHz SDRAM that is now my home server. It's true that I can't comfortably watch 720p during building, but other then that it's fine. And I do not use the precompiled OOo ;]

2. On the other hand it'd would be nice to have a Gentoo system (for the way you configure and manage it and most of all for the way it's preconfigured in stage3) on slow systems with little memory. Like a Pentium mmx 166 with 64MB ram that I have somewhere - combined with a couple of ISA 3coms and a PCI atheros card a great router.

3. But if you ignore use flags stuff won't work. And if you do the mirrors will need to host probably over several hundred combinations of media-video/mplayer. For each version. It looks like over 40 USE flags and I'm not in the mood to do the maths of adding all possible combinations of 1-50 out of 50 or something similar, but I reckon it will be at least several hundred. Remember how long it takes to build mplayer? Multiply it. What kind of build servers do you reckon what be needed? And what kind of storage mirrors....
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yngwin
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may want to take a look at Sabayon. It's a Gentoo-based distro which offers binaries.
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just took a look and the bineries are compiled with some preset USE flags. At the same time it let's you install stuff with emerge. So it gives a really nice way to shoot yourself in the foot ;] Unless I don't understand.
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gringo
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would like to ask why there are no servers with binary packages available?


there are several binary repos available here for several arches ( both stable and unstable IIRC) :

http://tinderbox.x86.dev.gentoo.org/default-linux/

Have a look if you want, i suppose the USE flags are surely minimal and i don´t think this is official in any way.

Quote:
What do You think about this?


i mainly use gentoo because of USE flags but if there is a way to have both worlds ( binary hell + source based solution) and i can choose between both, that´s fine for me.
Unfortunately such thing looks quite hacky and tricky to me, if not impossible, and gentoo isn´t really here to give yet another binary based solution.

cheers ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see this useful if the binaries were compiled with a sensible selection of use flags and then the user would do an

Code:
emerge -auDvN world


after installing any binaries. This will build all packages that have different use flags. I have been doing this for years at work with my own binary server since I have dozens of gentoo machines on my network. I also make use of sys-devel/icecream and ccache on all machines. I have more than 20 cores in my icecream compile farm.
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what is a sensible selection? Is X a sensible flag? It might seem so for a desktop user, but what about a router box?
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drescherjm
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me this is no different than the use flags you get from a stage 3 install.

One could have server versions and desktop binary packages. I actually do that on my local binary share.
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i92guboj
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drescherjm wrote:
To me this is no different than the use flags you get from a stage 3 install.

One could have server versions and desktop binary packages. I actually do that on my local binary share.


It might have worked for you during years. But that's just one environment, which probably doesn't have too much variations from one machine to another, with a very limited scope, set of packages and range of USE flags. I see no way this would work at all for a general Gentoo repository.

A stage3 has a base system. The variance on the base system is much lesser than on the rest of the user land packages. And in any case, while recompiling system is doable recompiling the whole userland would render this not only useless, but counter productive for most of the users. The only *right* way to do this is to have USEs into consideration, and that's simply not viable in computational terms.
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drescherjm
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to see the filenames that are generated for the binary packages include a hash code of the USE flags, gcc version, glibc version ... so I can dump the packages all in 1 folder and if the binary package is found it will be used if not the emerge will happen as normal.
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darklegion
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

szczerb wrote:
2. On the other hand it'd would be nice to have a Gentoo system (for the way you configure and manage it and most of all for the way it's preconfigured in stage3) on slow systems with little memory. Like a Pentium mmx 166 with 64MB ram that I have somewhere - combined with a couple of ISA 3coms and a PCI atheros card a great router.


You can just compile everything in a chroot on your main pc, making sure to set the appropriate CFLAGS (and cross compiler if the architecture is different).This is what I do for anything that is significantly slower than my main PC.I usually put set up distcc as well for the occasional emerge, although this is much slower than the chroot method.
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szczerb
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a way to go, but my main PC is a laptop nowadays (needed it portable and can't afford both right now) so it moves around with me. So I'd need to always find a big time slot cause I hate "pausing" and "resuming" a Gentoo install ;]

(but I do have a home server which might become a build server if I were to set up a machine that slow again)
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