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albright
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So ... is gentoo skipping kde 4.5 from portage, or what?
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Xamindar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

albright wrote:
So ... is gentoo skipping kde 4.5 from portage, or what?

I was wondering that myself. I'm itching to upgrade but would rather not go back to an overlay. It's been out what a week now?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Xamindar wrote:
albright wrote:
So ... is gentoo skipping kde 4.5 from portage, or what?

I was wondering that myself. I'm itching to upgrade but would rather not go back to an overlay. It's been out what a week now?


I read this from the horses' (a developer's) mouth but I assume no responsibility for my words. :P

KDE-4.5.0 will not be in portage. Maybe 4.5.1 but I will not bet on it.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://blog.tampakrap.gr/kde-4-5-0-in-gentoo/

Also about my previous statement, that driver update fixed the issues... it didn't. In fact, this new KDE seems to be running alternatively quite smoothly and like shit. A good benchmark is the speed of yakuake window sliding down - try it. Sometimes it's less than 1 second, sometimes more than 2 or 3...

It also seems to choke harder than usually when opening a ton of windows. By "ton" I mean "a large number, but not more than a computer capable of running maxed-out Crysis smoothly can handle and certainly less then the number of open windows Vista starts to choke on". You get what I mean.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rahulthewall wrote:
Xamindar wrote:
albright wrote:
So ... is gentoo skipping kde 4.5 from portage, or what?

I was wondering that myself. I'm itching to upgrade but would rather not go back to an overlay. It's been out what a week now?


I read this from the horses' (a developer's) mouth but I assume no responsibility for my words. :P

KDE-4.5.0 will not be in portage. Maybe 4.5.1 but I will not bet on it.
This is mostly posturing from Gentoo devs. I looked at the objectionable bugs from the blog. And my reaction was "bleh". Those bugs have no votes meaning no one except the filer is suffering from them. I really wish there was a showstopper bug (which makes the desktop unusable for most of the users) which was holding the release on Gentoo. But there is none!
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

devsk wrote:
rahulthewall wrote:
Xamindar wrote:
albright wrote:
So ... is gentoo skipping kde 4.5 from portage, or what?

I was wondering that myself. I'm itching to upgrade but would rather not go back to an overlay. It's been out what a week now?


I read this from the horses' (a developer's) mouth but I assume no responsibility for my words. :P

KDE-4.5.0 will not be in portage. Maybe 4.5.1 but I will not bet on it.
This is mostly posturing from Gentoo devs. I looked at the objectionable bugs from the blog. And my reaction was "bleh". Those bugs have no votes meaning no one except the filer is suffering from them. I really wish there was a showstopper bug (which makes the desktop unusable for most of the users) which was holding the release on Gentoo. But there is none!



bugs were not the main reason, as far as I understood. The main reason was that 4.5.0 does not contain all the packages, so users will find some of KDE favourites missing after upgrade. This perhaps stems from KDE now making not the releases, but 'software compilations', allowing development of some software to be not synchronized.
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devsk
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
devsk wrote:
rahulthewall wrote:
Xamindar wrote:
albright wrote:
So ... is gentoo skipping kde 4.5 from portage, or what?

I was wondering that myself. I'm itching to upgrade but would rather not go back to an overlay. It's been out what a week now?


I read this from the horses' (a developer's) mouth but I assume no responsibility for my words. :P

KDE-4.5.0 will not be in portage. Maybe 4.5.1 but I will not bet on it.
This is mostly posturing from Gentoo devs. I looked at the objectionable bugs from the blog. And my reaction was "bleh". Those bugs have no votes meaning no one except the filer is suffering from them. I really wish there was a showstopper bug (which makes the desktop unusable for most of the users) which was holding the release on Gentoo. But there is none!



bugs were not the main reason, as far as I understood. The main reason was that 4.5.0 does not contain all the packages, so users will find some of KDE favourites missing after upgrade. This perhaps stems from KDE now making not the releases, but 'software compilations', allowing development of some software to be not synchronized.
I am sorry to say this but devs are the first to "this is how upstream wants it" whenever we take some patch or enhancement to them (gnome comes to mind....:-D). KDE 4.5.0 IS how upstream wanted it. So, why this double standard now? kdepim is just an excuse. kdepim-4.4.5 works fine with kde 4.5.0 libraries: nothing is broken or regressing for end users. I am using those. Moreover, that's how upstream wanted to release 4.5.0.
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Dorsai!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
nothing is broken or regressing


I for an example have no l10n support in kde-4.4.5 applications. They are all English. This is something I can live with because I have no problems with English. I didn't even realize it was English instead of German at first but only that "something is different", but there are other users that would. I'd consider this a sort of a showstopper.

Then there are still a few minor bugs. Dolphin freezes for me sometimes when loading previews for image and video files. Really minor, but a regression nonetheless.
I get a crash window often when shutting down KDE, which I think comes from kopete or is caused by it as it is the only open application.
Kopete itself seems a bit unstable too and often reconnects. I don't know if this is a problem of kopete or one of the several troubles ICQ is having recently.

Sure those are minor problems I can well live with, but I think it is a good decision to leave out 4.5 for a while until things are settled and as stable and nice as 4.4.5.
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devsk
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorsai! wrote:
Quote:
nothing is broken or regressing


I for an example have no l10n support in kde-4.4.5 applications. They are all English. This is something I can live with because I have no problems with English. I didn't even realize it was English instead of German at first but only that "something is different", but there are other users that would. I'd consider this a sort of a showstopper.

Then there are still a few minor bugs. Dolphin freezes for me sometimes when loading previews for image and video files. Really minor, but a regression nonetheless.
I get a crash window often when shutting down KDE, which I think comes from kopete or is caused by it as it is the only open application.
Kopete itself seems a bit unstable too and often reconnects. I don't know if this is a problem of kopete or one of the several troubles ICQ is having recently.

Sure those are minor problems I can well live with, but I think it is a good decision to leave out 4.5 for a while until things are settled and as stable and nice as 4.4.5.
Dude! Products are released with bugs! That's the hard reality of the software! Just go kde upstream and look at the current set of bugs! You will cry for others. You are looking at your minor issues and saying 4.5.0 should be held. Look at the issues other people are facing. Different setups, hardware configurations, different set of libraries, so many conflicts. People find exciting ways of breaking software! Those bugs did not stop upstream from releasing it. It did not stop other distros from releasing it!
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Dorsai!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After all it would be ~arch anyway so you're probably right...
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

devsk wrote:
Dude! Products are released with bugs! That's the hard reality of the software! Just go kde upstream and look at the current set of bugs! You will cry for others. You are looking at your minor issues and saying 4.5.0 should be held. Look at the issues other people are facing. Different setups, hardware configurations, different set of libraries, so many conflicts. People find exciting ways of breaking software! Those bugs did not stop upstream from releasing it. It did not stop other distros from releasing it!
But think of the peace of mind gentoo devs have now, with users not complaining about missing kmail-4.5.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dorsai! wrote:
I for an example have no l10n support in kde-4.4.5 applications. They are all English. This is something I can live with because I have no problems with English. I didn't even realize it was English instead of German at first but only that "something is different", but there are other users that would. I'd consider this a sort of a showstopper.

You are talking of 4.4.5 or 4.5.0?
I have the l10n-issue with kde-4.5.0. Many applications, including plasma, dolphin, systemsettings come with partly mixed german/english strings, partly complete english. It is a complete fresh gentoo installation, there was no kde-4.4 before, and even no user-login before everything was installed. Quite disturbing, as this is an installation for a person, who does not speak such a good english to understand everything - going back to 4.4.5 this means.

There were severeal X-freezes, even complete hangs where sysrq-keys did not work anymore, e.g. when closing windows, saving settings in systemsettings.
I can understand Gentoo-devs to keep 4.5.0 outside of portage.

Concerning kdepim: Is there a possibility to install kdepim-4.4.5 with kde-4.5.0, without enabling kdeprefix? As far as i could see: no. So heavy recompilations just for kdepim?
As 4.5.0 won't go stable, i think it is OK to wait for 4.5.1. Just less trouble.
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devsk
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ppurka wrote:
devsk wrote:
Dude! Products are released with bugs! That's the hard reality of the software! Just go kde upstream and look at the current set of bugs! You will cry for others. You are looking at your minor issues and saying 4.5.0 should be held. Look at the issues other people are facing. Different setups, hardware configurations, different set of libraries, so many conflicts. People find exciting ways of breaking software! Those bugs did not stop upstream from releasing it. It did not stop other distros from releasing it!
But think of the peace of mind gentoo devs have now, with users not complaining about missing kmail-4.5.
Real people use kmail? Just kidding...:-D

It doesn't take much to close the bug as UPSTREAM. Heck, this can be just an einfo message. You can not deprive other users of KDE just because you feel a section of folks is going to crib, when they really should be cribbing to upstream devs.
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

devsk wrote:
Look at the issues other people are facing. Different setups, hardware configurations, different set of libraries, so many conflicts. People find exciting ways of breaking software! Those bugs did not stop upstream from releasing it. It did not stop other distros from releasing it!


While I would put 4.5.0 in ~ (with little hope to be ever moved to stable, I suspect), 'upstream released' is a weak argument here. KDE is not known to release polished (or even well tested) product in *.0 series :)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

franzf wrote:

You are talking of 4.4.5 or 4.5.0?
I have the l10n-issue with kde-4.5.0. Many applications, including plasma, dolphin, systemsettings come with partly mixed german/english strings, partly complete english. It is a complete fresh gentoo installation, there was no kde-4.4 before, and even no user-login before everything was installed. Quite disturbing, as this is an installation for a person, who does not speak such a good english to understand everything - going back to 4.4.5 this means.

Do you selected a language in the locale settings of systemsettings?, i still see some texts in english until i select my language (spanish), then relog and all the apps texts are in the correct language.

Quote:

There were severeal X-freezes, even complete hangs where sysrq-keys did not work anymore, e.g. when closing windows, saving settings in systemsettings.
I can understand Gentoo-devs to keep 4.5.0 outside of portage.

I havent see those using 4.5.0 for a week (without desktop effects, maybe is related to that)

Quote:

Concerning kdepim: Is there a possibility to install kdepim-4.4.5 with kde-4.5.0, without enabling kdeprefix? As far as i could see: no. So heavy recompilations just for kdepim?


I am using kmail 4.4.5 without kdeprefix so its perfectly posible.

Whyle i admit that there are some bugs with 4.5.0 (klipper menu, krunner history, glitches in notification system), those arent showstoppers to wait until 4.5.1 (KDE 4.3.0 had worse bugs than that).

@dmpogo: well..... you are right, those *.0 releases are always a lot more buggy, you have a point here :lol:
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devsk
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
devsk wrote:
Look at the issues other people are facing. Different setups, hardware configurations, different set of libraries, so many conflicts. People find exciting ways of breaking software! Those bugs did not stop upstream from releasing it. It did not stop other distros from releasing it!


While I would put 4.5.0 in ~ (with little hope to be ever moved to stable, I suspect), 'upstream released' is a weak argument here. KDE is not known to release polished (or even well tested) product in *.0 series :)
Whose choice is it make whether the release is stable or not? I think its KDE Org's and users' choice! Putting the stuff in portage and hard masking it serves both parties. Users who want it, take an explicit step to get it. Devs can close the bugs as not supported or upstream because "we told you so in package.mask" applies clearly in this case. Win win situation for both. But no, devs took an arrogant posturing, screwing their users in the process!
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides kdepim and the blur effect, kde 4.5.0 isn't that bad.

I took the chance and migrated to thunderbird, something I should have done long before. Have been using kmail for 10 years and it seems to get even worse. Since kde 4.0 I messed around with nepomuk/akonadi etc. and I think it has some major design flaws and produces more annoyances than it could possibly improve my workflow. And it eats 200 MB being idle and doing nothing ^^ Finally I disabled semantic-desktop and good riddance ;-)
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devsk
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

drhirsch wrote:
Besides kdepim and the blur effect, kde 4.5.0 isn't that bad.

I took the chance and migrated to thunderbird, something I should have done long before. Have been using kmail for 10 years and it seems to get even worse. Since kde 4.0 I messed around with nepomuk/akonadi etc. and I think it has some major design flaws and produces more annoyances than it could possibly improve my workflow. And it eats 200 MB being idle and doing nothing ^^ Finally I disabled semantic-desktop and good riddance ;-)
Here is my personal opinion of kmail: Its POS! It can't handle an IMAP server with few dozen folders and a folder with 5000 emails. Switching between folders takes ages (sometimes 30 seconds to 1 minute) and sometimes you really have to quit kmail to get out of that hang. Again, note that its an issue with largish folders. So, if you never seen this, you know why! You can find my bug on the kde bugzilla. Its got no love so far!

In fact I have several bugs (hangs and showstopper missing functionality) on kde bugzilla which haven't got any love for months now but I don't ask devs to not release 4.X.0 just because my bugs aren't fixed yet (nor will they listen...;-)).

PS: Thunderbird 3 is just plain awesome in comparison! Switching between large folders is instantaneous! No dead hangs! And the ability to do content searches is amazing! I love the ctrl-f (they listened and changed the drop down search conditions into selectable buttons) and ctrl-k shortcuts. My corporate calendar just works. Ability to bookmark important messages of the day or the week in a tab with double click is god given! TB 3 gets work done without wasting time!
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dmpogo
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

devsk wrote:
Whose choice is it make whether the release is stable or not? I think its KDE Org's and users' choice! Putting the stuff in portage and hard masking it serves both parties.


I agree that the tree and ~ in particular became a bit too conservative, and slow to get into. Which I guess is one unfortunate outcome of proliferation of overlay's. I would prefer gentoo trials of new software were carried between hard mask and unstable tree, visible to everybody and feeding new software to unstable quicker. It used to be that ~ was practically guaranteed to have the latest release of a software.
That will also speed up the final move to stable, which sometimes is quite stale nowadays.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmpogo wrote:
devsk wrote:
Whose choice is it make whether the release is stable or not? I think its KDE Org's and users' choice! Putting the stuff in portage and hard masking it serves both parties.


I agree that the tree and ~ in particular became a bit too conservative, and slow to get into. Which I guess is one unfortunate outcome of proliferation of overlay's. I would prefer gentoo trials of new software were carried between hard mask and unstable tree, visible to everybody and feeding new software to unstable quicker. It used to be that ~ was practically guaranteed to have the latest release of a software.
That will also speed up the final move to stable, which sometimes is quite stale nowadays.
That's my biggest with devs. We have three levels of protection: stable, unstable and hard masked. And we don't use these effectively!

I hate overlays. There are too many of them and too many conflicting packages.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

devsk wrote:
dmpogo wrote:
devsk wrote:
Whose choice is it make whether the release is stable or not? I think its KDE Org's and users' choice! Putting the stuff in portage and hard masking it serves both parties.


I agree that the tree and ~ in particular became a bit too conservative, and slow to get into. Which I guess is one unfortunate outcome of proliferation of overlay's. I would prefer gentoo trials of new software were carried between hard mask and unstable tree, visible to everybody and feeding new software to unstable quicker. It used to be that ~ was practically guaranteed to have the latest release of a software.
That will also speed up the final move to stable, which sometimes is quite stale nowadays.
That's my biggest with devs. We have three levels of protection: stable, unstable and hard masked. And we don't use these effectively!

I hate overlays. There are too many of them and too many conflicting packages.


I think overlays are overused and things are not pushed into the testing and masked trees aggressively enough. Here is how I think that things should work:

Overlays: Ebuilds that are not made by Gentoo's developers and need evaluation prior to inclusion into portage; ebuilds for major software collections like KDE that are in the alpha, beta and RC stages; ebuilds for esoteric software that would likely never be in portage that a subset of users need.
Masked: Ebuilds that have at least 1 known major issue; ebuilds for software that is alpha, beta and RC according to upstream and only has a few alpha, beta or RC dependencies in their dependency graph.
Testing: Ebuilds for software that is considered stable by upstream and has no known major issues.
Stable: Ebuilds for software that has not caused any problems for the users running testing in a period of 3 weeks.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

codestation wrote:
Do you selected a language in the locale settings of systemsettings?, i still see some texts in english until i select my language (spanish), then relog and all the apps texts are in the correct language.

Of course i selected locale in systemsettings.
After the downgrade to kde-4.4.5 I faced the same problem. Then I realised, that my locale-settings exported in .bashrc did not get it into kde (damn, the old problem). Get them also into .xprofile et voila all strings are translated properly, so my fault...

Quote:
I havent see those using 4.5.0 for a week (without desktop effects, maybe is related to that)

Yeah, they are effects-related. Some incompatibility between the intel-driver and kwin. Downgrade solved the issue.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

actually , i have an simillar setup, an laptop with an 945GM and a desktop with an ati radeon 4890.

both systems use the same kde settings ( i mean , i try to make them configured just about the same. of course its impossible , since the desktop monitor is bigger than the laptop one )

all in all , the performance is pretty much the same on the two systems. all works , blur with transparent windows and konsole work, cube rotates smoothly and windows wobbly like gello.

pretty happy with it.

the only time i make use of my video card is when gaming on windows. when on linux, i just feel i wasted money away :) although i love my little desktop setup ( quad core , 4 GB , ati 4890 )
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yagami wrote:
actually , i have an simillar setup, an laptop with an 945GM and a desktop with an ati radeon 4890.

both systems use the same kde settings ( i mean , i try to make them configured just about the same. of course its impossible , since the desktop monitor is bigger than the laptop one )

all in all , the performance is pretty much the same on the two systems. all works , blur with transparent windows and konsole work, cube rotates smoothly and windows wobbly like gello.

pretty happy with it.

the only time i make use of my video card is when gaming on windows. when on linux, i just feel i wasted money away :) although i love my little desktop setup ( quad core , 4 GB , ati 4890 )


You have a laptop with 945GM and KDE-4.5.0 working with OpenGL. And you have hit not any of these bugs:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=241402
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=247839

Please inform us about the kernel that you are using, intel driver version and xorg-server version.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 24, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rahulthewall wrote:
yagami wrote:
actually , i have an simillar setup, an laptop with an 945GM and a desktop with an ati radeon 4890.

both systems use the same kde settings ( i mean , i try to make them configured just about the same. of course its impossible , since the desktop monitor is bigger than the laptop one )

all in all , the performance is pretty much the same on the two systems. all works , blur with transparent windows and konsole work, cube rotates smoothly and windows wobbly like gello.

pretty happy with it.

the only time i make use of my video card is when gaming on windows. when on linux, i just feel i wasted money away :) although i love my little desktop setup ( quad core , 4 GB , ati 4890 )


You have a laptop with 945GM and KDE-4.5.0 working with OpenGL. And you have hit not any of these bugs:
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=241402
https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=247839

Please inform us about the kernel that you are using, intel driver version and xorg-server version.


well , i do have the freezing problem when changing kwin settings. it also happens in my desktop with radeon graphic card.
i have an keyboard shortcut to restart kwin , so no problem there ( also , i dont change kwin settings alot :) )

other than that , no , i dont have corruption with panels or drop down menu's , everything is perfect and fast ( and i do use blur with transparent windows )

my drivers are
kernel -> zen kernel
mesa -> mesa git
xorg -> 1.8.2
intel driver -> latest or git , not sure ( i am on the desktop right now )
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