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menschmeier
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: systemd question Reply with quote

I want to give systemd a shot. Yesterday I set up a ubuntu system for a friend. I noticed how fast the startup and shutdown was. The shutdown was so fast that I tought it was shut down the very hard way....
Ubuntu is using upstart. systemd is named it successor. Maybe it isn´t. I wannt to try it.

I found this wiki: http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Systemd
So, I want to install systemd from a overlay. To use systemd I have to define it in grub configuration:

Code:
title=Gentoo Linux (2.6.32-gentoo-r7)
root (hd0,0)
kernel /vmlinuz.bin root=/dev/hda3 init=/bin/systemd


Does this mean I will stay on the safe side if I do have an kernel configration in my grub.conf which do not use systemd. In case of trouble with systemd I would like to boot into an other kernel. Will the system start using the SysV-Init-Skripts?
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Shining Arcanine
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before you try reconfiguring you Gentoo Linux installation, I would like to suggest looking into OpenRC/baselayout2. OpenRC is much faster than the legacy init system. You can also configure a parallel boot, which should narrow the gap between it and Systemd considerably.

On my laptop, I have a 15 second boot from pressing the power button to having KDM start. That is from a combination of a modular kernel (everything not needed to run init is in a kernel module), OpenRC and a parallel boot.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, openrc makes a big difference in bootup, but it still delays shutdown for some vague reason. Shutdown in ubuntu is really fast. Usually within a second. Whereas shutdown with openrc takes at least 7 sec, if not more.
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:37 pm    Post subject: Re: systemd question Reply with quote

systemd can be used alongside SysV-Init or openrc. Actually I have systemd and openrc installed.

menschmeier wrote:
Does this mean I will stay on the safe side if I do have an kernel configration in my grub.conf which do not use systemd. In case of trouble with systemd I would like to boot into an other kernel. Will the system start using the SysV-Init-Skripts?

You can edit grub config from within grub, so you can always remove the init=/bin/systemd part.
A second config might be more convenient though.

Shining Arcanine wrote:
Before you try reconfiguring you Gentoo Linux installation, I would like to suggest looking into OpenRC/baselayout2.

∧ has not yet tried systemd
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Dagger
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I use systemd for quite a while now. Not everything works as intended (laptop is not powering down sometimes, networkmanager is always crashing during shutdown, some other problems as well). None of these problems happen with OpenRC.

systemd is designed from scratch and has completely different approach to init system. Personally I like it a lot, but would not recommend switching just now, unless you know how to clean up the mess. Reading documentation about it is essential.
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menschmeier
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I failed switching to systemd. Something must have been gone wrong with udev. The system started up till the display manager. Then I recognized that keyboard and mouse are not working ... :-(

I saw some error message on the console. But I had no chance to fix the system. Only way was to restore the system from backup.
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Shining Arcanine
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

menschmeier wrote:
I failed switching to systemd. Something must have been gone wrong with udev. The system started up till the display manager. Then I recognized that keyboard and mouse are not working ... :-(

I saw some error message on the console. But I had no chance to fix the system. Only way was to restore the system from backup.


If sshd is running and your permissions let you obtain root access (i.e. directly, via su, via sudo), you can ssh into the system and fix it. An alternative is to boot a System Rescue CD and fix it inside a chroot.
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menschmeier
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no sshd but iptables .. so even sshd would have been run, iptables would have prevented any any access ...

My laptop is directly connected to the internet, with no router in between. So iptables makes me feel safer.
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Etal
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't you just remove the init=/bin/systemd line?
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menschmeier
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a configured in grub.conf one kernel with systemd and one without. With both I wasn't able to boot into a working system ....
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Shining Arcanine
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

menschmeier wrote:
I had a configured in grub.conf one kernel with systemd and one without. With both I wasn't able to boot into a working system ....


You can temporarily modify the boot parameters in GRUB to accomplish what he is saying. Use 'e'.
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viralex
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did anyone tried systemd working without openrc?
I mean, I don't want to do this "systemctl enable openrc-init.service".
Are there any broken/missing services using systemd only?

Reading gentoo guide http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Systemd, I see that it is possible to remove sysv useflag, and unmerge openrc - baselayout2. I don't want to dare that much :P
Do I get the same results without removing these components? (but not using openrc/baselayout at all)

After watching Lennart Poettering video about systemd, I'm so curious :D
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VoVaN
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

viralex wrote:
Did anyone tried systemd working without openrc?
I mean, I don't want to do this "systemctl enable openrc-init.service".
Are there any broken/missing services using systemd only?

Reading gentoo guide http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Systemd, I see that it is possible to remove sysv useflag, and unmerge openrc - baselayout2. I don't want to dare that much :P
Do I get the same results without removing these components? (but not using openrc/baselayout at all)

After watching Lennart Poettering video about systemd, I'm so curious :D


I'm running systemd for a month without sysv flag. Today I've removed openrc and sysvinit... The only issue I have at the moment, that I can't properly use shutdown/restart commands from gnome. I've created shutdown/reboot/halt wrappers for systemd in /sbin, but when I issue reboot form gnome my comp is powered off. I don't have sufficient knowledge of gnome to understand how it works.
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PeterH
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VoVaN wrote:
Did anyone tried systemd working without openrc?
I'm running systemd for a month without sysv flag. Today I've removed openrc and sysvinit... The only issue I have at the moment, that I can't properly use shutdown/restart commands from gnome. I've created shutdown/reboot/halt wrappers for systemd in /sbin, but when I issue reboot form gnome my comp is powered off. I don't have sufficient knowledge of gnome to understand how it works.


Did you get systemd to play nice with Gnome/GDM ? I have the same problems with shutdown/reboot. Wrappers for "systemctl reboot" and "systemctl poweroff" isn't doing the trick.
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VoVaN
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PeterH wrote:
VoVaN wrote:
Did anyone tried systemd working without openrc?
I'm running systemd for a month without sysv flag. Today I've removed openrc and sysvinit... The only issue I have at the moment, that I can't properly use shutdown/restart commands from gnome. I've created shutdown/reboot/halt wrappers for systemd in /sbin, but when I issue reboot form gnome my comp is powered off. I don't have sufficient knowledge of gnome to understand how it works.


Did you get systemd to play nice with Gnome/GDM ? I have the same problems with shutdown/reboot. Wrappers for "systemctl reboot" and "systemctl poweroff" isn't doing the trick.


Poweroff/reboot from GDM/Gnome session works fine for me. The only issue I have is using kexec: in order to reboot with kexec I have to use "systemctl kexec" or just "Ctrl+Alt+Del" from console.
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Mardok45
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been running systemd on my netbook with Gnome3.

The only problem I have is Plymouth not starting. Not that big of a deal.
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ManDay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also intrigued by the possibilities which systemd says to offer. On the other hand, I would not like to go through the hassle of setting it up manually and specifically running a "non supported" init, if it brought not much of an advantage. I have no huge requirements on boot and although I'm sure systemd would be a good amount quicker than openrc, I don't really need it that much.

Are there any news on when (I assume it will be just a matter of time), systemd goes stable and when it will officially replace openrc?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ManDay wrote:
I'm also intrigued by the possibilities which systemd says to offer. On the other hand, I would not like to go through the hassle of setting it up manually and specifically running a "non supported" init, if it brought not much of an advantage. I have no huge requirements on boot and although I'm sure systemd would be a good amount quicker than openrc, I don't really need it that much.

Are there any news on when (I assume it will be just a matter of time), systemd goes stable and when it will officially replace openrc?
i don't think it will replace it. and not very quickly. the time it took for baselayout2 to stabilize is a suggestion for things to come.

i rather think gentoo will allow you to pick between systemd and openrc. it actually already does, with systemd overlay.
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ManDay
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curious. I was under the impression that systemd was considered the de facto best init. Are there people who consider OpenRC superior or in other regard advantageous? And if, what are the arguments pro OpenRC?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Openrc is in so far superior in that it's reliable. I'm sure systemd will manage this accomplishment one day as well. Even then I'm sure there are people who will prefer openrc due to dependencies and no need to break FHS compliance. Also writing init scripts is a lot more comfortable.

For other distros systemd can well be an improvement over their current init system but they aren't replacing openrc in the first place.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ManDay wrote:
Curious. I was under the impression that systemd was considered the de facto best init. Are there people who consider OpenRC superior or in other regard advantageous? And if, what are the arguments pro OpenRC?

No, systemd is (will be) the only fully integrated service system coming to linux worlds:
init+dbus+session+cron+xinet+(?)

Something windows had from start of win2000. But it never had fully been used. And Osx has had ever since beginning.

If you want an all-Unix compatible init system while trying to boot Freebsd kernels you'll better stick to openrc. Talking specially about the init part: Openrc already has some of the features systemd will introduce to (non-openrc) sysV systems.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

systemd turns too many things upside down at once.

it's about to replace xinetd, consolekit, init and whatnot else at the same time. and it requires cgroups, which limits its usage atm.

i think classic init systems will be around for a while, due to current problems with portability of that solution.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cgroups complement the features of fork to control and keep track of the initiated tree of processes. A task which early unix developers didn't think of?

As systemd is opensource you should feel free to disable features you want to handle in a more traditional way.
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ManDay
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not particularly care about all those features of systemd. What I really want is the type of parallelisation if offers (starting services before their deps are required, etc). I don't think OpenRC has anything like that and, in comparison, takes an eternity to do its job.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is systemd really so much faster that it is worth the hassle right now? I must say that openrc with rc_parallel="YES" and rc_depend_strict="NO" was a huge advancement already compared to the baselayout-1 days, boots my system in no time.
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