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jesnow
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: KDE3 fan thread: There are advantages. Reply with quote

OK I know I'm majorly swimming against the tide here, but KDE3 rules.

1) It is stable, that it, there are so few changes that nothing gets broken just because something else got updated.

2) OK it has vulnerabilities, but the remaining installed base is so small, it's not worth it for anybody to try to exploit them.

3) It is blazingly fast, and uses far fewer cpu cycles (ie battery life) than KDE4. Meanwhile XFCE and KDE4 are about equal.

4) It supports dual screens (not xinerama, which I hate).

5) It installs next to KDE4 if you have to use a KDE4 application (Bittorrent comes to mind).

6) It is not loaded down with crap you have to turn off. It just does the job.

So though I know I'm living on borrowed time, I'm grateful to the people who put together and appear to be maintaining the kde-sunset overlay, which keeps this fossil but still highly useful bit of open source history functional in an up to date environment.

Cheers,

Jon.
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BradN
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE 3... The one thing that made me feel horrible about doing a full reinstall on a functioning but beyond outdated gentoo box.

Now I'm using LXDE on my laptop and halfway upset that there's no good display (ie, login) manager for such a thing.

On the plus side, this message written using a KDE3/LTSP terminal that I'll probably cry about when I have to update. The terminal has a designed for NT/95 sticker on it and it runs plenty speedy for anything but watching videos...
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jbouzan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did like kde3 a lot, but even when early versions of kde4 were a feature downgrade, I switched just because it's fun to have things break and learn how to fix them. Maybe less fun for people with jobs beyond "full-time student with a Comp Sci minor."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Desktop Environments to Unsupported Software.
Not in portage, nor will it be. Your best option is an overlay
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ComaWhite
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: KDE3 fan thread: There are advantages. Reply with quote

jesnow wrote:
OK I know I'm majorly swimming against the tide here, but KDE3 rules.

1) It is stable, that it, there are so few changes that nothing gets broken just because something else got updated.

2) OK it has vulnerabilities, but the remaining installed base is so small, it's not worth it for anybody to try to exploit them.

3) It is blazingly fast, and uses far fewer cpu cycles (ie battery life) than KDE4. Meanwhile XFCE and KDE4 are about equal.

4) It supports dual screens (not xinerama, which I hate).

5) It installs next to KDE4 if you have to use a KDE4 application (Bittorrent comes to mind).

6) It is not loaded down with crap you have to turn off. It just does the job.

So though I know I'm living on borrowed time, I'm grateful to the people who put together and appear to be maintaining the kde-sunset overlay, which keeps this fossil but still highly useful bit of open source history functional in an up to date environment.

Cheers,

Jon.


Well I cannot stand KDE3 period. For one, it used to be great, now it's just really bad. I love change, I don't like the same old boring look, years after years, hence why I left GNOME for KDE4.
A lot of the KDE3 based apps were very ugly, the themes were not that great. The taskbar was very big and thick. Icons were not greatly designed. The toolbars were inconsistent.

1). KDE4 is pretty much very stabled, you hardly ever get crashes
2). Security, updates
3). Mine KDE4 desktop is very fast even when every feature installed and on two monitors 1920x1080 and 1440x1050.
4). Dual monitor support (supports xinerama somewhat, you don't get effects with xinerama enabled)
5). Uses a much better toolkit version of Qt, that allows for LGPL and it works on other OSes unlike Qt3.
6). KDE4 application's run on Mac and Windows (if you ever have to use those OSes)(Though it's still not stabled on them)
7). Desktop effects builtin
8). Plasma desktop
9). Better development DE for us programmers.
10). Has no competition when compared to GNOME
11). It's just bloody awesome overall.
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A collegue of mine asked: "Why on earth should I upgrade to KDE4?" and I answered: "first, QT3 is dead and second, KDE3 is dead, too."
And that, as sad as it may be, is simply the truth. If I need a full-scale-DE, KDE4 is the choice for me. If I do not need something that big, I prefer OpenBox.
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have yet to find anything I like about kde-4. When it first came out, it was just plain broken. Each newer version I used was sometimes better, sometimes worse than what preceded it. The latest version, 4.6.1 has yet to finish full emerge on my amd64 because of a bug that has seniority from kde-4.6.0. It seems that bug is going nowhere. So is kde-4, at least on any other system than the one its on now.

Why I don't like kde-4

1. They threw out the baby with the bathwater.
2. From the first time I used it until now, it has always felt broken.
3. It can be very, very delicate. with settings changing and disappearing as if by magick.
4. It always reminded me of Gnome with uglier features, and more buggy operation.
5. It seems they don't fix anything before they're breaking new stuff.
6. The latest version won't finish installing because of a bug that's existed since the last version.
7. Eye candy: Meh!

Cheers,
Pappy
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... And again I feel strange... pappy, I have not witnessed anything you list since kde-4.1 (I did not try 4.0) KDE-4 worked out of the box from the beginning with no problems but one that the hibernation of my laptop broke around kde-4.3. So what exactly is "broken", "delicate" or which setting "disappear" or "change" as if by magic? Maybe I just overlooked it?
I'd like to know so I can understand those that are constantly trying to convince me how bad, ugly and broken KDE4 is, while it is working fast, stable and reliable like a charm on my laptop. I just don't get it. :?
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still run 3.4 on one of my freeBSD's because of Quanta+.
I follow 4 on my Gentoo since 4.3 and currently under 4.4

I find far less annoying bugs under 3.4 than under 4.4

- The biggest drawback I find with V3 is its artsd sound daemon. To this matter, I think the move to phonon is a very positive one.
- I appreciate the possibility of different activities per desktop since 4.4
- I am very interested and find definitely clever the idea behind the semantic-desktop. This is potentially a significant move forward.
However... I must admit that... to date... it is only potential as... it is not working... Hmmm... very well... :evil:

The biggest complaint I would have regarding KDE 4 is that they simply do not care of their users. This project seems to work the fire & forget way. There are no migration tools, even no clean migration procedures when upgrading. The easiest way being to restart each new version from scratch with a new user. That is *not* convenient. :evil:
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asturm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
I still run 3.4 on one of my freeBSD's because of Quanta+.
I follow 4 on my Gentoo since 4.3 and currently under 4.4

I find 4.6 to be a much more current version, do test it. ;)

aCOSwt wrote:
The biggest complaint I would have regarding KDE 4 is that they simply do not care of their users. This project seems to work the fire & forget way. There are no migration tools, even no clean migration procedures when upgrading. The easiest way being to restart each new version from scratch with a new user. That is *not* convenient. :evil:

There certainly was no migration from 3 to 4, but I still have my kde4 user dir back from 4.2. There have been small glitches here and there, where deletion of specific *rc files always solved it for me.
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These are my observations. If you don't like my opinion, say so. Do not call me a liar as to what I observed with my machines. That is really bad form, and it makes you look like a fool.

Now, for proof as to my present issue: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353730.

Please note this bug is STILL not fixed. Also note the bug is well over a month old. Because of this bug, kde-4.6.x WILL NOT FINISH LOADING. And that is just the latest in a long line of bugs that has plagued my kde-4 setup since I started messing with that mess.

Cheers,
Pappy
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cach0rr0
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah snap. forgot all about that bug. I just tossed a modified ebuild+patch in a local overlay and it sailed on through
two machines on 4.6.1, upgrading the third as we speak.

overall happy with it. Definitely some kinks to work out with the build process, but once it's up it's been quite pleasant to use (for me)
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BradN
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those kind of bugs kinda irk me - I mean it's a well recognized issue... why isn't it fixed upstream to allow building without it? I wonder if there's some kind of political (or maybe apple-like "we want all kde to have this") motivation in pushing the whole akonadi thing or what, or if it really is just laziness or bad communication somewhere.

It would seem like we're the wrong crowd to have something forced down our throats like that though.

Or maybe I'm reading too far into that issue...
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pappy_mcfae wrote:
These are my observations. If you don't like my opinion, say so. Do not call me a liar as to what I observed with my machines. That is really bad form, and it makes you look like a fool.
No, yours is, because I did not call you a liar but said I never witnessed what you witnessed but want to understand. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. And yes, I do not have any issues with KDE-4(.6.1) so please don't make it look like I was lying.

You might have problems I can't have because of different hardware settings. So please cool down.
pappy_mcfae wrote:
Now, for proof as to my present issue: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=353730.
I do not need proof I fully believe you (and all others) without. But yes, that is some information I asked for, so thank you very much.
Now, for the bug, I can't know, because I do not need these features, so everything builds fine for me.
That is one of the other "different setting"-things...
pappy_mcfae wrote:
Please note this bug is STILL not fixed. Also note the bug is well over a month old. Because of this bug, kde-4.6.x WILL NOT FINISH LOADING. And that is just the latest in a long line of bugs that has plagued my kde-4 setup since I started messing with that mess.
Sorry, but that example is a really bad one. It is not a bug of KDE4, it is a problem with the gentoo build system. Solving patches have been published in this bug on 2011-02-11, so over a month ago since you could solve it locally. But they are not good enough for the main tree.:
Theo Chatzimichos wrote:
2011-02-24 03:56:53 UTC

no, the patch isn't good. I wrote a similar patch for plasma-workspace with upstream's cooperation, and they wanted it to be done properly. The contacts part contains non semantic-desktop stuff (in gentoo terminology), thus disabling it globally is not the right way to go (I am not sure about the other parts though, like lancelot or events).
Since I'll be away for the next two-three weeks, don't expect a fix soon, it will be my first todo item when I get back though, since this bug is very
important and I consider it a major stabilization blocker. Of course, anyone is free to report it upstream for a possible quicker response.

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Last edited by Yamakuzure on Tue May 03, 2011 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have your opinion, I have mine. I'm not going to waste more time arguing about it. kde-4 has been a waste as far as I'm concerned. If you think it's the greatest thing, fine. I think it's not, therefore, I do not support nor do I recommend kde-4.

Cheers,
Pappy
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daseinhorn
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been using kde4 since the 4.0.X releases, and I have seen major improvements since. I have excellent performance with 4.6.X, and I do not intend to look back.
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Cyker
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good for you! ;)

I am almost done divesting myself of anything DE-based (Still those few apps for which there is no good replacement! Aaaa!).

I never want to go through these stupid forced obsolescence issues ever again...!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kde 4 works ok for me, except for sound. phonon is just horrible, and everything using it (e.g. amarok) suffers from muffled sound and even lattency problems. And this is on a new 6 six core phenom system with a discrete sound card. It's a shame that windows plays sound much better than kde4/phonon.

From what I have read, this won't be solved. There are too many layers of software dealing with sound on kde4, e.g., if one is using amarok: amarok -> phonon -> xine -> alsa
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asturm
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your phonon issues must be bugs and can't be layer/performance related. Right now I'm listening to amarok flawlessly playing my favourite webradio while one of two cores is at 100%.

Probably xine related, try out the vlc backend.
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Ormaaj
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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KDE4 is pretty light. I run it with xmonad and don't use very many of it's features mostly because I don't understand them. The biggest thing I dislike about kde4 is the non-existent documentation, outdated documentation for what exists, and disorganized website. Basic kde install is ok. I like a lot of the QT applications anyway which is why I have it installed.
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der bastler
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Semantic desktop... Reply with quote

KDE3 was great for getting things done. With the introduction of "semantic desktop" a KDE4 with default settings is not usable any more, at least not on notebooks. A file indexer is just a PITA with sub-5000-rpm notebook HDDs!

Nepomuk, strigi & Co. made me switch from KMail/KAddressbook/Kalendar to Thunderbird and from Akregator to Google Reader. Bye bye KDE PIM, it was a great time. Today I unmerged the last remains of kdepim-meta.

When Amarok demanded a SQL server it was replaced by Clementine.

Bluetooth support is broken, too. Worked perfectly in KDE3, the upgrade to KDE4 was in fact a severe regression and in the end bluetooth handling was broken beyond recognition. Last hope: bluedevil...

But: Up until now I can't find a better DE. Perhaps GNOME3 might be worth a look. Or *sigh* "one" has to fork KDE4 and reduce it to the essential parts (i.e. create a "KDE4 light").
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The kde-sunset overlay means you don't have to suffer through putting up with KDE4's myriad issues. The only proviso is that KDE-3 works best with xorg-server-1.7.7-r1, since both use the hal USE flag.

I have frozen this machine at xorg-server 1.7.7-r1. That means that KDE-3 is still fairly functional, especially as a system that allows for files to be stored on the desktop. After trying KDE4 on two machines, I can only wonder why it is that KDE continues to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Cheers,
Pappy
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ComaWhite
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PostPosted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pappy_mcfae wrote:
The kde-sunset overlay means you don't have to suffer through putting up with KDE4's myriad issues. The only proviso is that KDE-3 works best with xorg-server-1.7.7-r1, since both use the hal USE flag.

I have frozen this machine at xorg-server 1.7.7-r1. That means that KDE-3 is still fairly functional, especially as a system that allows for files to be stored on the desktop. After trying KDE4 on two machines, I can only wonder why it is that KDE continues to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Cheers,
Pappy


Maybe people are just scared of changes. Personally I can't be arsed to continue to use old outdated stuff like KDE3. Which also I find very ugly and not really feature fit for me to waste time continuing to use it. Personally I love changes. I ditched GNOME2 years ago for KDE4 because GNOME wouldn't change anything and I got tired of it.
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scared of changes? It is to laugh. I am not afraid of any changes, as I continue to keep xfce4 updated.

I use KDE3 because it works for my purposes. I do not use KDE4, because it does not. No fear. No fright. No sitting at the keyboard hunched over like Gollum. Just what works versus what doesn't.

But thanks for the free psychoanalysis. I always appreciate that.

Cheers,
Pappy
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What doesn't work? Have you ever bothered reporting the problems? Because if you aren't, then how else you expect them to be fixed?
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