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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you insist on analyzing me? Who are you that I should have to explain myself to you?

Seriously. I give an opinion, and all of a sudden, I have two amateur Freuds trying to make assumptions and inferences on my life, reality, and humanity because I think KDE4 sucks.

Get a grip, people! Recheck the name of the group while you're at it!

It's a desktop, not a reason to become some sort of expert on the human condition. It's a desktop, not a Rorschach ink blot test. It's a desktop, not a comment on my life, or the lives of those who prefer kde3 over kde4.

And here I thought this stuff only happened on Farcebook. Sheesh!

One more note. Since I have achieved "Watchman" status, it should be assumed that I've worked with Gentoo for a while. I'm not a n00b just coming down off the Redmond high.

Cheers...sort of,
Pappy
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jesnow
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hear Hear Pappy!

Just because something is new and shiny doesn't make it automatically good. That's why I started this thread: Not as a troll, but for people using KDE3 (there were bound to be some) to realize they are not alone.

If some of you don't like KDE3, please leave us alone, if you don't mind.

Pappy, is that why KDE no longer automounts usb sticks, because xorg-server >1.77 doesn't recognize the hal use flag? I guess I'll need to mask off the later ones too.

Cheers,

Jon.

ps: Some new shiny things *are* good, like my full dura-ace carbon fiber bike: Steel may be real, but it just doesn't make as good a bike, and no amount of retro-nostalgia for my old tripple butted slx pinarello (with hand-painted detailing on the lugs!) will change that. Retro is not an end in itself.

pappy_mcfae wrote:
Why do you insist on analyzing me? Who are you that I should have to explain myself to you?

Seriously. I give an opinion, and all of a sudden, I have two amateur Freuds trying to make assumptions and inferences on my life, reality, and humanity because I think KDE4 sucks.

Get a grip, people! Recheck the name of the group while you're at it!

It's a desktop, not a reason to become some sort of expert on the human condition. It's a desktop, not a Rorschach ink blot test. It's a desktop, not a comment on my life, or the lives of those who prefer kde3 over kde4.

And here I thought this stuff only happened on Farcebook. Sheesh!

One more note. Since I have achieved "Watchman" status, it should be assumed that I've worked with Gentoo for a while. I'm not a n00b just coming down off the Redmond high.

Cheers...sort of,
Pappy
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure on that one. I haven't checked automounting functionality in any of my other machines that use xorg-server-1.9.x, and don't use the hal USE flag. I do know that it just works with KDE-3. It also seems to work properly with the latest version of Xfce4.

As for those who wish to pass judgment on others because of their desktop choices, please know that some of us prefer to work WITH our computers, not ON our computers. KDE3, for all its foibles is very stable. KDE4 has shown itself to be anything but stable. That goes for the first version to what exists now.

Cheers,
Pappy
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pappy_mcfae wrote:
I'm not sure on that one. I haven't checked automounting functionality in any of my other machines that use xorg-server-1.9.x, and don't use the hal USE flag. I do know that it just works with KDE-3. It also seems to work properly with the latest version of Xfce4.

As for those who wish to pass judgment on others because of their desktop choices, please know that some of us prefer to work WITH our computers, not ON our computers. KDE3, for all its foibles is very stable. KDE4 has shown itself to be anything but stable. That goes for the first version to what exists now.

Cheers,
Pappy

I hate to be judgemental :D , but I've had few problems with stability in current incarnations of KDE4. I'm running 4.2.6 on this system and 4.6.3 on a couple of others. Of course, I'm running the "Classic Menu Style" as opposed to the "Application Launcher Style", so it looks a lot like KDE3 (if I remember correctly). Maybe I'm missing some of the true joys of KDE4.
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der bastler
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:27 am    Post subject: Re: Semantic desktop... Reply with quote

der bastler wrote:
Bluetooth support is broken, too. Worked perfectly in KDE3, the upgrade to KDE4 was in fact a severe regression and in the end bluetooth handling was broken beyond recognition. Last hope: bluedevil...


Ok, Bluetooth is working again in KDE 4.6. :)
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My main reasons for avoiding KDE4 is much the same as my reasons for avoiding Vista and Windows 7 - I absolutely HATE the new interface.

Yes you can use the 'classic' KDE-style launcher, but that only gives you the startbar, the rest of the horrible interface is still the same.

Little things matter to me!

That and KDE4 means I can't use un-ported KDE3 apps... but the whole debacle taught me a lesson: DE's are stupid bloat.

They provide very little in the way of interaction but have have enough downsides, and the loss of a chunk of apps which work perfectly other than the fact that they need KDE3 is the final straw, hence my migration back to WM's and apps which do not *need* DEs :)

I'm going to be Linuxing for a long time and won't be surprised if I see KDE 5, 6 and 7 and I bet each one of those will break all KDE apps that were in previous versions - I want something stable, not something that instantly makes apps I use unusable every time a new major comes out :S
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jesnow
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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cyker wrote:
My main reasons for avoiding KDE4 is much the same as my reasons for avoiding Vista and Windows 7 - I absolutely HATE the new interface.


Same here. I don't need that fancy stuff, it helps me not at all getting my work done, and I don't like it.

USB automounting has stopped "just working" for me, does anybody have any idea about this?

Jon.
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Yamakuzure
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pappy_mcfae wrote:
As for those who wish to pass judgment on others because of their desktop choices, please know that some of us prefer to work WITH our computers, not ON our computers. KDE3, for all its foibles is very stable. KDE4 has shown itself to be anything but stable.
Don't you see that you are the "judging one"? For you KDE4 has shown itself as unstable. Solution: Do not use it. And everybody should accept that. But for me KDE 4 is dead stable and suits my need. Solution: I use it. And everybody , including you has to accept that as well. Please stop trying to convince me that my system is broken when it simply isn't. And please stop calling those people, whose KDE 4 is as stable as mine liars.

So if you want us to accept that you had bad experience with KDE 4, accept that we do not share such experience. I have no intention to "analyze you", why should I?
I simply asked for examples that allow me to understand the problems you spoke of concerning the instability of KDE 4. Nothing more, nothing less. And until now you didn't give any example that has its roots in the development or responsibility of KDE 4. Until now your KDE-4-bashing simply seemed to be misguided. (In the sense of being directed to the wrong target.) And that is the only reason for me to ask for examples. Not to understand you, but the experience you had.

That's no big deal:
You see KDE 3 more fit for your needs? Ok, I perfectly accept that.
I see KDE 4 more fit for my needs, and I expect you to accept that as well.
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Spanik
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Still on KDE3.5 and so far keeping it. I do have KDE4.6 on the laptop but don't really like it.

- the cashew... largest gripe of all. I don't want it! It doesn't do anything that cannot be done by clicking on the bar or right-click and are far more logical accessible such way.
- running an emerge --update world worked fine every time with KDE3/QT3. Since KDE4/QT4 it never works without babysitting it and stopping every 5-10 packages
- lots of new KDE apps are plain worse than the old ones: kmail that nees a database and keeps my disc so busy I can hardly do anything else, dolphin that is a constant source of frustration,
- each iteration is worse, not better (this apart from the first few that were even not functional) Like now the battery status when going from 4.5 to 4.6. In 4.5 it worked fine, in 4.6 it always drop to 49% once I remove the AC power but still gives me 3.3 hours working time.
- don't think it is nicer: kdm 4.6 is horrible, looks like something for kids, the default background is too busy to be attractive and fonts are worse than 3.5.

All the rest... don't care.  If you set the menu to classic it is usable, if you disable all eye candy it's reasonably fast, stability is not an issue, it works all the time. Audio? If you want audio use Jack. But what is the point in running kde if you don't use any kde application anymore?

I have no issue working with twm as long as I can set the keyboard, the background and the mouse at left-handed, focus follows mouse strictly.

Trying out a few other DE's now. XFCE is nice and usable but it doesn't understand "one-click" mouse and gets confused when you switch the mouse buttons left-right. And is has the stupid habit of making all hard discs accessible, even if not mounted, or not in fstab. Fluxbox is fine as well, but having to make a xorg.conf to set the keyboard is a bit over it. At last we can use X without xorg.conf and now I'd need one for the DE? Tried LXDE on the netbook once but that wasn't a succes.

Anybody here switching to Trident?
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pappy_mcfae
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. It is wonderful that with all the people who are saying pretty much the same thing as I are ignored as everyone here wants to prove to me how wrong I am. I must be incredibly important. Thanks for the boost to my ego.

Once again, if I want to work ON my computer instead of WITH it, I could get kde4 stable. But why bother?

As has been said, you can pretty much bet the next iteration is going to be a mess. I had up to KDE-4.5 working to some degree on my amd64. After 4.6, no dice. Not only was I held up by a bug that would not allow full completion of the install, KDE4 would not start once the bug was fixed. It still will not start, and I'm not going to waste time trying to figure out why. I have better things to do with my machinery than to get KDE4 going when Xfce4 works just fine, and will run the apps to a greater or lesser degree.

And about those apps. Two different launcher apps? Really? Why don't they set just ONE up that works AS IT SHOULD? Nope. Rather have two apps that barely work. Some move up.

Cheers,
Pappy, the one that everyone wants to convince.
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PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow.

For my part, I like booting to a command line and using startx. That's gotten much harder to get away with. I also like having two separate screens, not xinerama, where one screen is spread over two displays. Both work great in KDE3 but were a problem with KDE4. Interestingly, I can run KDE4 programs under KDE3 now, on the twin screens -- best of both worlds. But I have no reason to. so for me, it's simply that the upgrade path for the way I like to work is more trouble than just figuring out how to use kde-sunset.

I don't understand anybody would be upset that some people don't really care to use KDE4. But I also don't get why people get so smug and defensive about their choice of Coke/Pepsi, Mac/PC/Linux or Beatles/Stones.

When I get around to installing gentoo on my new machine (currently mandated win7 by my family) I'll use KDE4 if the install goes down easily. If not...

Jon.
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PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I must be incredibly important. Thanks for the boost to my ego.


Enjoy it, it won'l last... :lol:

Quote:
For my part, I like booting to a command line and using startx. That's gotten much harder to get away with.


Is there another way? I'm so used to have trouble after an emerge that I never let the machine boot directly into the gui. (certainly a few years back when the ati/nvidia drivers were apt to trow up) Always command line first. Then I start with kdm if running kde, startx otherwise. It isn't that hard with Gentoo. Other distros might be different but that's why I use Gentoo. It works as I want it. another thing is that I can have kde, xfce or fluxbox on the same install and just choose whatever I like that day from the command line. The rest of the apps just follow along and don't care what DE they're running in.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now there's a new issue, it seems like KDE4 requires udev/upower/udisks and that is blocked by hal, which is required for KDE3 to work. do we now have to remove KDE4 to keep KDE3 around?

Code:


These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild     U ] dev-libs/pth-2.0.7-r3 [2.0.7-r2]
[ebuild     U ] virtual/perl-libnet-1.220.0 [1.22]
[ebuild     U ] media-libs/gstreamer-0.10.32-r1 [0.10.31]
[ebuild     U ] media-libs/gst-plugins-base-0.10.32 [0.10.31]
[ebuild     U ] sys-power/upower-0.9.9 [0.9.8]
[ebuild     U ] mail-client/thunderbird-3.1.10 [3.1.9] USE="debug%*"
[blocks B     ] sys-apps/hal ("sys-apps/hal" is blocking sys-power/upower-0.9.9)

 * Error: The above package list contains packages which cannot be
 * installed at the same time on the same system.

  (sys-apps/hal-0.5.14-r4, installed) pulled in by
    sys-apps/hal required by @selected
    >=sys-apps/hal-0.5.10 required by (app-misc/hal-info-20091130, installed)

  (sys-power/upower-0.9.9, ebuild scheduled for merge) pulled in by
    sys-power/upower required by (kde-base/kdelibs-4.6.2-r3, installed)


For more information about Blocked Packages, please refer to the following
section of the Gentoo Linux x86 Handbook (architecture is irrelevant):

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1#blocked




Cheers,

Jon.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yamakuzure wrote:
Hmmm... And again I feel strange... pappy, I have not witnessed anything you list since kde-4.1 (I did not try 4.0) KDE-4 worked out of the box from the beginning with no problems but one that the hibernation of my laptop broke around kde-4.3. So what exactly is "broken", "delicate" or which setting "disappear" or "change" as if by magic? Maybe I just overlooked it?
I'd like to know so I can understand those that are constantly trying to convince me how bad, ugly and broken KDE4 is, while it is working fast, stable and reliable like a charm on my laptop. I just don't get it. :?


Change to the netbook form factor and try switching back.

Make 4 new activities and then remove all of them (i.e. restore your original activity).

If you use xine, run dolphin as root for a while and see the CPU usage of knotify4 go to 100%.

Try setting hotkeys for your apps in kmenuedit.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@jesnow: I guess you can always disable old, broken hal to keep KDE3 automounting around. I imagine there are lots of other deprecated dependencies to work around to keep it alive.
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jesnow
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to be rude or anything, but why don't you guys post in a thread about KDE4? This one is trying to be about KDE3, unpopular as that may be.


dE_logics wrote:
Yamakuzure wrote:
Hmmm... And again I feel strange... pappy, I have not witnessed anything you list since kde-4.1 (I did not try 4.0) KDE-4 worked out of the box from the beginning with no problems but one that the hibernation of my laptop broke around kde-4.3. So what exactly is "broken", "delicate" or which setting "disappear" or "change" as if by magic? Maybe I just overlooked it?
I'd like to know so I can understand those that are constantly trying to convince me how bad, ugly and broken KDE4 is, while it is working fast, stable and reliable like a charm on my laptop. I just don't get it. :?


Change to the netbook form factor and try switching back.

Make 4 new activities and then remove all of them (i.e. restore your original activity).

If you use xine, run dolphin as root for a while and see the CPU usage of knotify4 go to 100%.

Try setting hotkeys for your apps in kmenuedit.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only trying to help there, since you asked the question. :) Keeping KDE3 and KDE4 side-by-side will only work by disabling automounting for one or the other.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No it was the other guys debugging KDE4 I was criticizing. Thanks for your comment! Since KDE3 is primary for me, how would I disable KDE4 automounting? There doesn't seem to be a USE flag like -udisks...

I should have chosen the title more carefully for this thread, it's bringing out people who just want to dump on anybody still using KDE3, and THEN it becomes mostly about KDE4 bugs. Or the non-existence thereof because "hey it works for me".

Thanks for the help,

Jon

genstorm wrote:
Only trying to help there, since you asked the question. :) Keeping KDE3 and KDE4 side-by-side will only work by disabling automounting for one or the other.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a start, you need to build kdelibs with USE="-udev", not sure if there are other related packages.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
For a start, you need to build kdelibs with USE="-udev", not sure if there are other related packages.


Tried that -- no effect. After doing a search, I ealized that the only obligatory KDE4 application I have left is k3b, and I haven't used that in ages. Remind me why we still have optical drives? It might be simpler to remove KDE4 than to get it not to automount... anyway, I'll bet there's some alternative to k3b out there.

Any ideas before I pull the plug?

Cheers,

Jon .
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would need to use the old k3b version instead, isn't it in kde-sunset overlay? While making the new k3b udev-aware they possibly ditched hal support entirely.

PS: I've also got no optical drive here, but there's still an USB one lurking around for encoding my music library.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
You would need to use the old k3b version instead, isn't it in kde-sunset overlay? While making the new k3b udev-aware they possibly ditched hal support entirely.

PS: I've also got no optical drive here, but there's still an USB one lurking around for encoding my music library.


Well, uninstalling KDE4 is going smoothly. I have a working KDE3-only laptop to compare against. Apparently, the Trinity project has the aim of keeping side-by-side KDE3 and KDE4 going, but I don't know that there's an overlay for it.

Cheers,

jon.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, there's no Trinity overlay yet, at least no one has told me of one. I did ask, and my question is still out there on one of the forum hard drives.

As for getting KDE3 to work with another DE (let's say, Xfce4's latest version), it requires that you use xorg-server-1.7.7-r1. Since KDE3 requires the hal USE flag, you just have to make sure that all dependencies that would draw in upower are limited in /etc/portage/package.mask.

Any xorg-server that uses udev (and doesn't use hal) will NOT work properly with KDE-3. However, the latest version of Xfce4 will work on top of xorg-server-1.7.7-r1. Only xfce-session has a problem with the hal USE flag. It is apparently not needed for Xfce4 functionality.

Maintaining a KDE-3 setup can be very difficult, and leads to many blocked packages. Fortunately for me, none of the packages I use has an issue with the setup.

Cheers,
Pappy
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just finished removing the last vestiges of KDE4 from my system -- it was doing a lot more than I thought, and there was a lot of work for revdep-rebuild.

Interesting that chrome is now noticeably faster.

I am using x11-base/xorg-server-1.9.5 and don't know how to downgrade. Hald is running fine and shows plug and unplug events with lshal -m.

USB media show up in media:/, I can mount them and unmount them from the command line and by right clicking, but the automount dialog doesn't pop up when they are inserted.

Thanks in advance!

Jon
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pappy_mcfae wrote:
Any xorg-server that uses udev (and doesn't use hal) will NOT work properly with KDE-3. However, the latest version of Xfce4 will work on top of xorg-server-1.7.7-r1.

I fail to see how that should be a problem. xorg-server hot-plugging does not interfere with KDE and vice versa.
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