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ffpp
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Can I install gentoo without systemd? Reply with quote

Hey allz,

I have installed gentoo to my box again (it had gentoo 2 or so years ago), and I realized, that I dont have eth0 any more, and several other weird thigs ^^. I started googling around and found out that it should be because of a thing systemd. Can I live without it, or better get used to it?
What sort of problems will occur because of this?

ty
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not a systemd artifact; it's a new udev artifact, called (somewhat ironically) "Predictable Network Interface Names". Just go with the names, strange as they are and you'll be fine. A couple of alternatives:
  • Disable predictable network interface names. Append
    Code:
    net.ifnames=0
    to your kernel command line.
  • emerge eudev, which will also re-establish the traditional names.
Search "Predictable Network Interface Names" on the forums for more background and information.

- John
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depontius
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can (as root) also "touch /etc/udev/rules.d/80-net-name-slot.rules" to keep the old kernel names.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why nobody mentioned the most recommended solution: Write udev rules which choose a name different from eth%n, for instance something like:
Code:

# PCI ethernet cards go to lan:
SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="?*", SUBSYSTEMS=="pci", KERNEL=="eth*", NAME="lan%n", OPTIONS="last_rule"
# Android tethering goes to wan:
SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="rndis_host", SUBSYSTEMS=="usb", NAME="wan%n", OPTIONS="last_rule"
# Other usb stuff is wlan:
SUBSYSTEM=="net", ACTION=="add", DRIVERS=="?*", SUBSYSTEMS=="usb", KERNEL=="wlan*", NAME="wifi%n", OPTIONS="last_rule"
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Hu
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you use GNOME 3.8, you must use systemd. GNOME 3.8 developers decided to add hard dependencies on systemd, so GNOME does not work properly without it. If you use some other desktop environment, you can choose whether to use systemd or openrc.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why nobody mentioned the most recommended solution: Write udev rules which choose a name different from eth%n, for instance something like:


Because this quirky change (persistent names) is only useful if you have a server mobo and is different from the rest of the Linux universe. Also, it's crammed down your gullet like systemd. Using a blank 80-net-name-slot.rules keeps the eth0 and wlan0 names.

I used to run a Tyan server board so I recognize the problem. Sometimes one port would be eth0, sometimes the other. When I didn't connect to the network, I would just switch the cable to the other port. That's not good if you're actually running an unattended server. I still think it must have been caused by some race condition in the udev code, but the developers took the easy way out and came up with these nonsense names instead and told everyone to change all their other scripts and programs.
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depontius
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regardless, the current names are neither predictable nor persistent. You don't really know the pci enumeration until you do it, and the usb enumeration is even worse.

The only thing that is reasonably predictable and persistent about a network interface is its MAC, and it's only predictable because it's usually on a sticker somewhere on the box or card.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i agree about the names not being persistent or predictable. switching usb ports changes the names on some of my usb wifi adapters. i much prefer the predictability of wlan0-9 & eth0-9
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you guys for all those info, pretty useful to me. So my question stays. Should I go without (ok for me not to use gnome 3.8 just yet) systemd, or better install the system with it, because it is newer and the way to go thinking in long term? (I think arch goes with systemd already)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no reason you can't install without systemd. As far as I know, gentoo has no plans to go systemd.

Yes, Arch has gone systemd, however my arch laptop killed its own install due to systemd. Don't ask me how, I didn't bother to find out. I just emerged a fix to the problem :wink: Needless to say I am personally very unimpressed with systemd.
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Because this quirky change (persistent names) is only useful if you have a server mobo and is different from the rest of the Linux universe.

Sorry, but this is stupid nonsense and false in every aspect: Using the recommended solution is of course not "different from the rest of the Linux universe". And the need for persistent names is there whenever you have (at least) two devices which could lead to the same namespace (two ethernet devices, two wifi devices); in the example I posted, an android device which you attach for tethering can be such a case - this has nothing to do with server mobo.
Quote:
Also, it's crammed down your gullet like systemd.

Great: After desinformation posting some stupid FUD. I am really opposite to systemd and especially to the policy behind it, but please stay to the truth when you attack it. What is the case with network names is that an old mechanism which was always rather suboptimal in many situations and for which several alternatives existe was finally even found to cause even potential races and has been removed. Since this was the default mechanism a different default (of course, again with pros and cons) has been implemented, but this does of course not change the recommended way - which just cannot be the default, because it needs a-priori knowledge of the system and of the devices which you plan to attach possibly when the system is running.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Using the recommended solution is of course not "different from the rest of the Linux universe".


I work for the USPS, we have lots of Linux servers. They run Fedora (I assume the govt is too cheap to pay for RedHat licenses). They also use the ethX system. I know many people running Ubuntu. Ubuntu. Their systems use ethX and wlanX. Fedora and Ubuntu make up a pretty big chunk of the Linux Universe.

Quote:
this has nothing to do with server mobo.
Well, I gave you an example. You say the old udev handled it fine. I say it didn't. You were here every time I booted into Gentoo, of course.

I think you would be better off being an advocate for Windows. You have that "My way is the only way and how dare you say otherwise" attitude.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mv wrote:
Why nobody mentioned the most recommended solution: Write udev rules which choose a name different from eth%n ...
Perhaps I should have: it's what I do. However, it depends on the definition of "recommended" you use. For Gentoo developers, the most common definition of "recommended" is "upstream defaults" which may be the most appropriate for a new user and is, in fact, what I recommended.

- John
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
Quote:
this has nothing to do with server mobo.

Well, I gave you an example.

It is not clear what you try to prove here.
A short course in logic: Your claim was "need persistent names => have server mobo". I gave you an example showing that implication is false (in contrast to proving an implication, a single counterexample is sufficient to disprove it). You give an example with "have server mobo and do not need persistent names". Apart from the fact that it makes no sense trying to prove a disproved implication, and an example cannot prove it anyway, this example does not even strongly support it, since already the premise of the implication is not satisfied in this example.
Quote:
You say the old udev handled it fine.

No, I said rather the opposite, namely that also the old solution was suboptimal in many cases. Moreover, I said that it was removed because of the race. Which is all even in accordance with the experiences you mentioned.
Quote:
You were here every time I booted into Gentoo, of course.

You seem to suggest that I called your experience wrong. This seem to be a big misunderstanding. Quite the opposite, I did not contradict it and my posting was even explaining it.
Quote:
You have that "My way is the only way and how dare you say otherwise" attitude.

I called two objectively false statements and then some FUD what it is. Why do you become personally now?
And BTW, what do you even think that "my way" is for which I accept no contradiction or alternatives? I mean this question seriously: I just contradicted two wrong claims and did not advocate something as "the only way". How can one even think this, when I add a third alternative to two others posted before?
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mv
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
However, it depends on the definition of "recommended" you use

The term was intentionally vague, because I do not remember exactly and was too lazy to check:
IIRC this recommendation was given in the related "equery news" (or at least in some discussed form or in some page referenced by it) and additionally even in some announcement or blog of udev upstream.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do you become personally now?


Because you got personal first, calling me a liar and accusing me of spreading FUD. Your attempts to distort what I said above are ludicrous to anyone who bothers to read them.

I only attempted to explain how to keep the old names and gave an example of where the new names might be useful. You seem determined to have a flame war. I refuse to cooperate because I actually have a real life.
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mv
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony0945 wrote:
I only attempted to explain how to keep the old names and gave an example of where the new names might be useful. You seem determined to have a flame war.

Oh, I see: Of course, your posting was just an explanation how to keep old names and about giving an example:
Quote:
only useful if you have a server mobo and is different from the rest of the Linux universe. Also, it's crammed down your gulle

And of course, by definition, anybody correcting this nonsense obviously only does this to have a flame war and to attack you personally.
Quote:
I refuse to cooperate because I actually have a real life.

Great. EOD.
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