Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
UEFI, Grub2, "Trying to terminate EFI services again"
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Installing Gentoo
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:23 am    Post subject: UEFI, Grub2, "Trying to terminate EFI services again&qu Reply with quote

I'm attempting to get Gentoo installed on my latest machine - this'll make the fourth or so. But the first with EFI (specifically, UEFI), all the previous ones have been BIOS.

So, after fighting with the system a few different ways, I eventually got grub2 to boot. I did this by using sysrescuecd and some help on IRC.

However, I'm doing something wrong still. Because grub offers me the choice to load the kernel, and, when I select it, all I get is "Trying to terminate EFI services again." Nothing else seems to happen.

No amount of googling has seemed to help, so I'm hoping someone here will have an idea.

Code:
root@sysresccd /boot/grub % parted /dev/sda
GNU Parted 3.1
Using /dev/sda
Welcome to GNU Parted! Type 'help' to view a list of commands.
(parted) print                                                           
Model: ATA Samsung SSD 840 (scsi)
Disk /dev/sda: 256GB
Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/512B
Partition Table: gpt
Disk Flags:

Number  Start   End     Size    File system  Name                 Flags
 1      1049kB  2097kB  1049kB  fat32        BIOS boot partition  bios_grub
 2      2097kB  212MB   210MB   fat32        EFI System           boot
 3      212MB   256GB   256GB   ext4         Linux filesystem


And ...

Code:
root@sysresccd /boot/grub % parted /dev/sdb
GNU Parted 3.1
Using /dev/sdb
Welcome to GNU Parted! Type 'help' to view a list of commands.
(parted) print                                                           
Model: ATA ST2000DM001-1CH1 (scsi)
Disk /dev/sdb: 2000GB
Sector size (logical/physical): 512B/4096B
Partition Table: gpt
Disk Flags:

Number  Start   End     Size    File system     Name     Flags
 1      1049kB  34.4GB  34.4GB  linux-swap(v1)  swap
 2      34.4GB  2000GB  1966GB  ext4            disk1fs


I haven't done anything with /dev/sda1, the EFI stuff is in /dev/sda2, which is supposed to eventually mount on /boot. Root is /dev/sda3, and /usr/portage and various other (bigger, less-frequently-accessed) things are found on /dev/sdb2.

Kernel settings:

Code:
(chroot) sysresccd linux-3.13.5-gentoo # grep EFI .config
CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION=y
CONFIG_EFI=y
# CONFIG_EFI_STUB is not set
CONFIG_FB_EFI=y
# EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) Support
CONFIG_EFI_VARS=y
CONFIG_EFI_VARS_PSTORE=y
CONFIG_EFI_VARS_PSTORE_DEFAULT_DISABLE=y
CONFIG_EFIVAR_FS=y
# CONFIG_EARLY_PRINTK_EFI is not set


Any advice would be appreciated. I've been beating my head against this for a while now, just to get grub to come up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if it's related, but why do you have a bios_grub partition? When booting on EFI, all of grub's config & files should be on the EFI partition.
This is what I have:

Code:
Number  Start   End     Size    File system     Name     Flags
 1      1049kB  211MB   210MB   fat16           primary  boot
 2      211MB   4506MB  4295MB  linux-swap(v1)  primary
 3      4506MB  256GB   252GB   ext4            primary


And I mount /dev/sda1 /boot/efi on my root.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bios_grub partition was just because I had so many problems getting grub to install and boot - at one point grub said it didn't have enough space or something, so I repartitioned it just in case. Maybe it's not required, but it's only an extra meg, so, unless it's preventing me from continuing, I'd rather just leave it :)

grub2-mkconfig seems to have figured out the appropriate root partition, if I'm reading its output grub.cfg properly, I'm just not sure if I am making it that far.

The grub2 on the sysrescuecd is working, so I'm pretty sure it's just me not doing something right.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you this:
Code:
grub-mkimage -O x86_64-efi

To install grub?

Was /dev/sda2 mounted to /boot/efi at the time?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I used grub2-install:

Code:
grub2-install /dev/sda --target=x86_64-efi --efi-directory=/boot --boot-directory=/boot


I had originally put in an --efi-directory of /boot/efi, but that didn't want to work (grub wouldn't even come up), so I switched to this and now at least grub comes up.

I've mounted /dev/sda2 at /boot, not /boot/efi, though I suppose I could move it down and put the rest of grub in /dev/sda3.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I've mounted /dev/sda2 at /boot, not /boot/efi, though I suppose I could move it down and put the rest of grub in /dev/sda3.

Give it a try. The only thing I can tell you is that's what I've got, and it's working.
This website helped me a lot setting grub up: http://www.rodsbooks.com/linux-uefi/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I just did something reeeally clever:
1/ log in as root, because that's the account I used when I installed gentoo.
2/ Ctrl-r grub2 to check what command I used to install grub.
3/ Out of habit, press enter.
4/ Panic and hit ctrl-c
5/ "I wonder if it had time to squash my grub, let's reboot and check"

... it had time to corrupt it, yeah :)
So I can confirm that on my system, with /dev/sda1 (sda2 for you) mounted on /boot/efi, the following command installs grub correctly:
Code:
 grub2-install --target=x86_64-efi /dev/sda


Try that instead of specifying efi & boot directories.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

grub2-mkimage seems to just create the .efi file - to stdout. So I'd have to figure out where to put it. And I think that's what grub2-install does :) The info page for grub-install (not grub2-install, I just found out) indicates this.

As to without the extra install options?

Code:
(chroot) sysresccd linux-3.13.5-gentoo # grub2-install --target=x86_64-efi /dev/sda
EFI distributor id isn't specified.


I put in the extra options which got rid of the warning here. I'm not sure if there's a better way.

Is your /boot then part of your root filesystem (/dev/sda3 in your case)? And then /boot/grub is on your ext4 filesystem?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is your /boot then part of your root filesystem (/dev/sda3 in your case)? And then /boot/grub is on your ext4 filesystem?

That is correct (colonel O'Neil). /boot/grub, /boot/kernel-... all on the root system.

And you were right about image vs install, I used install as well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1374

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SirRobin2318 wrote:
Quote:
Is your /boot then part of your root filesystem (/dev/sda3 in your case)? And then /boot/grub is on your ext4 filesystem?

That is correct (colonel O'Neil). /boot/grub, /boot/kernel-... all on the root system.

Efi specifications only guarantee loading from a EFI-fat partition.
_________________
fun2gen2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Efi specifications only guarantee loading from a EFI-fat partition.

Yeah, for loading grub. Which installs in /dev/sda2 (on Tanktalus' system, the fat partition). But once grub is loaded, it'll boot your kernel from an ext partition, that's its job.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, having moved things around a bit - so /dev/sda2 -> /boot/efi - I get exactly as far. Grub comes up, but just says "Trying to terminate EFI services again." and stops (the hard disk seems to be going, but nothing shows up on the console).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, could I see your /boot/grub.cfg? I'll diff it with mine see if I see something strange pop up. You did run mkconfig after mkinstall?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically, it's /boot/grub/grub.cfg, but I get what you mean. I see a reference to grubenv - it's effectively empty (just a bunch of #s)

Did I re-run -install and -mkconfig? Yes, since if I hadn't, I doubt that I would have even gotten grub itself to come up with the correct choices. However, I did - it just won't load the kernel. This could be a problem with the kernel? I don't know, though given that the string that's showing up is found in the grub code and not the kernel code, I would expect it's in grub.

Code:
#
# DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE
#
# It is automatically generated by grub2-mkconfig using templates
# from /etc/grub.d and settings from /etc/default/grub
#

### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/00_header ###
if [ -s $prefix/grubenv ]; then
  load_env
fi
if [ "${next_entry}" ] ; then
   set default="${next_entry}"
   set next_entry=
   save_env next_entry
   set boot_once=true
else
   set default="0"
fi

if [ x"${feature_menuentry_id}" = xy ]; then
  menuentry_id_option="--id"
else
  menuentry_id_option=""
fi

export menuentry_id_option

if [ "${prev_saved_entry}" ]; then
  set saved_entry="${prev_saved_entry}"
  save_env saved_entry
  set prev_saved_entry=
  save_env prev_saved_entry
  set boot_once=true
fi

function savedefault {
  if [ -z "${boot_once}" ]; then
    saved_entry="${chosen}"
    save_env saved_entry
  fi
}

function load_video {
  if [ x$feature_all_video_module = xy ]; then
    insmod all_video
  else
    insmod efi_gop
    insmod efi_uga
    insmod ieee1275_fb
    insmod vbe
    insmod vga
    insmod video_bochs
    insmod video_cirrus
  fi
}

terminal_input console
terminal_output console
if sleep --interruptible 0 ; then
  set timeout=10
fi
### END /etc/grub.d/00_header ###

### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/10_linux ###
menuentry 'Gentoo GNU/Linux' --class gentoo --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os $menuentry_id_option 'gnulinux-simple-99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811' {
   load_video
   insmod gzio
   insmod part_gpt
   insmod ext2
   set root='hd0,gpt3'
   if [ x$feature_platform_search_hint = xy ]; then
     search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root --hint-bios=hd0,gpt3 --hint-efi=hd0,gpt3 --hint-baremetal=ahci0,gpt3  99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811
   else
     search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root 99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811
   fi
   echo   'Loading Linux 3.13.5 ...'
   linux   /boot/kernel-3.13.5 root=/dev/sda3 ro 
}
submenu 'Advanced options for Gentoo GNU/Linux' $menuentry_id_option 'gnulinux-advanced-99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811' {
   menuentry 'Gentoo GNU/Linux, with Linux 3.13.5' --class gentoo --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os $menuentry_id_option 'gnulinux-3.13.5-advanced-99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811' {
      load_video
      insmod gzio
      insmod part_gpt
      insmod ext2
      set root='hd0,gpt3'
      if [ x$feature_platform_search_hint = xy ]; then
        search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root --hint-bios=hd0,gpt3 --hint-efi=hd0,gpt3 --hint-baremetal=ahci0,gpt3  99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811
      else
        search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root 99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811
      fi
      echo   'Loading Linux 3.13.5 ...'
      linux   /boot/kernel-3.13.5 root=/dev/sda3 ro 
   }
   menuentry 'Gentoo GNU/Linux, with Linux 3.13.5 (recovery mode)' --class gentoo --class gnu-linux --class gnu --class os $menuentry_id_option 'gnulinux-3.13.5-recovery-99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811' {
      load_video
      insmod gzio
      insmod part_gpt
      insmod ext2
      set root='hd0,gpt3'
      if [ x$feature_platform_search_hint = xy ]; then
        search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root --hint-bios=hd0,gpt3 --hint-efi=hd0,gpt3 --hint-baremetal=ahci0,gpt3  99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811
      else
        search --no-floppy --fs-uuid --set=root 99da9572-003e-4559-adc6-51d5b9f7c811
      fi
      echo   'Loading Linux 3.13.5 ...'
      linux   /boot/kernel-3.13.5 root=/dev/sda3 ro single
   }
}

### END /etc/grub.d/10_linux ###

### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/20_linux_xen ###
### END /etc/grub.d/20_linux_xen ###

### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/30_os-prober ###
### END /etc/grub.d/30_os-prober ###

### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/40_custom ###
# This file provides an easy way to add custom menu entries.  Simply type the
# menu entries you want to add after this comment.  Be careful not to change
# the 'exec tail' line above.
### END /etc/grub.d/40_custom ###

### BEGIN /etc/grub.d/41_custom ###
if [ -f  ${config_directory}/custom.cfg ]; then
  source ${config_directory}/custom.cfg
elif [ -z "${config_directory}" -a -f  $prefix/custom.cfg ]; then
  source $prefix/custom.cfg;
fi
### END /etc/grub.d/41_custom ###


My build flags for grub:

Code:
[ebuild   R    ] sys-boot/grub-2.00_p5107-r2:2  USE="efiemu multislot nls sdl truetype -custom-cflags -debug -device-mapper -doc (-libzfs) -mount -static {-test}" GRUB_PLATFORMS="efi-64 emu pc -coreboot -efi-32 -ieee1275 -multiboot -qemu -qemu-mips -yeeloong" 0 kB
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DONAHUE
Watchman
Watchman


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 7550
Location: Goose Creek SC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you considered avoiding using grub2?
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/EFI_stub_kernel
_________________
Defund the FCC.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, we have basically the same thing.
What I don't get, is that you're past the hardest part, getting into grub. From then on it should be easier...
What motherboard does your system have? maybe something will come up in google?

In the mean time, I checked your USE flags, I don't have -efiemu. You could try without it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Logicien
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 1368
Location: Montréal

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This /etc/portage/make.conf variable can be the culprit even if it have what's seem to be a normal value
Code:
GRUB_PLATFORMS="efi-64 emu pc -coreboot -efi-32 -ieee1275 -multiboot -qemu -qemu-mips -yeeloong"

I use only
Code:
GRUB_PLATFORMS="efi-64"

and Grub2 work perfectly in UEFI mode on my HP Pavilion g6 Notebook PC.

These are my USE flags:
Code:
equery u grub
[ Legend : U - final flag setting for installation]
[        : I - package is installed with flag     ]
[ Colors : set, unset                             ]
 * Found these USE flags for sys-boot/grub-2.00_p5107-r2:
 U I
 - - custom-cflags            : Build with user-specified CFLAGS (unsupported)
 - - debug                    : Enable extra debug codepaths, like asserts and extra output. If you want to get meaningful backtraces see http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/backtraces.xml
 - - device-mapper            : Enable support for device-mapper from sys-fs/lvm2
 - - doc                      : Add extra documentation (API, Javadoc, etc). It is recommended to enable per package instead of globally
 - - efiemu                   : Build and install the efiemu runtimes
 - - grub_platforms_coreboot  : Coreboot platform support
 - - grub_platforms_efi-32    : EFI 32 bit platform support (Old MACs)
 + + grub_platforms_efi-64    : EFI 64 bit platform support
 - - grub_platforms_emu       : Emulation platform support
 - - grub_platforms_ieee1275  : IEEE1275 pltaform support
 - - grub_platforms_multiboot : Multiboot platform support
 - - grub_platforms_pc        : PC platform suppport
 - - grub_platforms_qemu      : QEMU platform support
 - - grub_platforms_qemu-mips : QEMU MIPS platform support
 - - grub_platforms_yeeloong  : YEEELONG MIPS platform support
 - - mount                    : Build and install the grub-mount utility
 + + multislot                : Allow concurrent installation of sys-boot/grub:0 and sys-boot/grub:2 by renaming all programs.
 + + nls                      : Add Native Language Support (using gettext - GNU locale utilities)
 + + sdl                      : Add support for Simple Direct Layer (media library)
 - - static                   : !!do not set this during bootstrap!! Causes binaries to be statically linked instead of dynamically
 - - test                     : Workaround to pull in packages needed to run with FEATURES=test. Portage-2.1.2 handles this internally, so don't set it in make.conf/package.use anymore
 + + truetype                 : Add support for FreeType and/or FreeType2 fonts

The efiemu USE flag is off. So, give a try to reemerge Grub2 with this new make.conf GRUB_PLATFORMS value and USE flags and réinstall it with grub-install. It can change something.
_________________
Paul
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tanktalus
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gah!

Ok, I've done the above. Still no change - still getting "Trying to terminate EFI services again."

However I just figured something out. It *IS* booting. Darned fast, too, I might add, but that's likely something to do with the fact that it has nothing to boot.

It just isn't displaying anything on the screen. I can ssh in just fine.

Am I missing something video related?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:D well, that was fun.

Well it seems it would be a kernel issue then. The "Trying to terminate EFI services again." does seem to be grub related though.

Just to rule out a efi problem coming from the kernel, I have the following activated:
Code:
CONFIG_EFI_PARTITION=y
CONFIG_EFI=y
CONFIG_EFI_STUB=y
CONFIG_FB_EFI=y
# EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) Support
CONFIG_EFI_VARS=y
CONFIG_EFIVAR_FS=y


But I'm guessing it's more framebuffer related... Time for bed for me, I'll see what I can find tomorrow.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
srs5694
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Posts: 434
Location: Woonsocket, RI

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DONAHUE wrote:
Have you considered avoiding using grub2?
http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/EFI_stub_kernel


I'd phrase this as a recommendation, not a question. I've tried every EFI boot loader for Linux in existence (or at least, all of them that I know of), and in my experience, GRUB 2 is the most difficult to configure by hand and the least reliable. It's not all that bad on Fedora, Ubuntu, OpenSUSE, and other distributions that provide pre-built binaries and a mound of well-tested scripts to configure everything so that it works; but Gentoo expects end users to build the binaries and do more in the way of manual configuration. These tasks are where GRUB 2 falls flat on its face, taking you down with it. Those other distributions typically use GRUB because it supports a wide variety of platforms (both firmware type and CPU), and has options to handle every contingency; but a Gentoo user doesn't need such a wide range of options. Instead, a Gentoo user can pick a boot loader that does the job on one system and forget about the cases that don't matter on that system. Thus, for Gentoo, GRUB 2 is a poor choice for a boot loader, particular under EFI. (Note there's no "IMHO" in that sentence.)

To learn what's available, see my Web page on the subject. As a quick highlight, I agree with DONAHUE that the EFI stub loader is a good choice, particularly when paired with gummiboot or my own rEFInd. (Using the EFI stub loader directly is possible, but you'll give up flexibility and, paradoxically, it will become harder to configure compared to use it with gummiboot, or especially with rEFInd.) ELILO, although no longer under rapid development, remains reliable and is much easier to configure than GRUB 2. ELILO is fine by itself on a Linux-only system, but you'll need to pair it with something else if you're installing in a dual-boot configuration. If you're comfortable with LILO on a BIOS-based computer, you'll find ELILO quite familiar.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vaxbrat
l33t
l33t


Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 731
Location: DC Burbs

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:44 am    Post subject: Partitioning scheme? Reply with quote

Check the partitioning scheme here in my wiki entry maybe? I get this to work on a mirror set with /boot formatted as btrfs. It should work for ext4 I bet:

http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Btrfs_native_system_root
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SirRobin2318
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 24 Apr 2004
Posts: 241
Location: Strasbourg, france.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manually edit your /boot/grub/grub.cfg, under each line that reads
Code:
load_video

add:
Code:
set gfxpayload=keep


If that works we'll find a way to make mkconfig generate it correctly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Installing Gentoo All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum