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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin,

I know you only intended to change the ring buffer.
I was less sure what make clean would do as you clock being correct is required but not sufficient. It must also be monotonic.
There appeared to be some doubt about the monotonic bit, which is what would have upset make
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steveL
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin wrote:
I had already had, no?

Obviously not. You kept referring him to point X from your OP, as if he's some beginner you're helping and not the other way round.
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What about when they're not? :?

Well if you just want to be smart, good luck with that approach. </out>
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MarcoMarin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Obviously not.

It is not so obvious to me, but yes, I'm the beginner.
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You kept referring him to point X from your OP, as if he's some beginner you're helping and not the other way round.

Look, perhaps you misinterpreted my intentions? I believed that to be the most informative and efficient way and I still do. I was quite thorough before I dared bothering you guys here, however humbly, and my OP speaks for it.

I wasn't doubting Neddy's skillz nor telling him to read points in a manual; and you can't possibly ask him to remember every detail of all people's problems he may be trying to help solve for the entire duration of their diverse threads, however superior you may regard him to you.
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Well if you just want to be smart, good luck with that approach. </out>

I apologize for any perceived offense. I intend following more your way, thanks.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin,

I'm pretty laid back about it all - its not a problem to me.

I will relay a wee story that illustrates the problem of working with an inconsistant and/or incomplete data. Feel free to lol at the end.
A few years ago, I was helping someone in #gentoo with their lack of sound. After about 8 hours, lots of kernel builds later, everything was looking good but still no sound.
The problem? boot was not being mounted for the kernel install. The guy may well have fixed his problem before he came to #gentoo for help.
I learned a lot from that session, not just about making sure boot is mounted :)
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MarcoMarin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
MarcoMarin,

I'm pretty laid back about it all - its not a problem to me.

I'm sure! : ) that's why I asked Steve about "unasked questions", but apparently I should not want to be smart.
Quote:

I will relay a wee story that illustrates the problem of working with an inconsistant and/or incomplete data. Feel free to lol at the end.
A few years ago, I was helping someone in #gentoo with their lack of sound. After about 8 hours, lots of kernel builds later, everything was looking good but still no sound.
The problem? boot was not being mounted for the kernel install. The guy may well have fixed his problem before he came to #gentoo for help.

hehehe... I wouldn't doubt it has something similar behind this, it certainly has something to do with the supposedly "built-in" keyword, or that extremely similar module rtl8187 (same deps and all) wouldn't be so 'laid back' about probing itself. lol. (shame it doesn't work for my card :( )

Unfortunately I must move on now and at least have this box working for it's initial intended purpose: helping out on the cryptocurrency arena, before I 'lay back' once more for another learning session. ; )

If this 'unsolved' taste is too unfulfilling (it certainly is to me, but I'm the beginner.. j/k :D ), please help me get feathercoin-qt running? or understand how I could help the 9999 dev process.. I'm not even sure if the project is alive or how to contact the developers, I just wanted to set this new video card I bought (solely for this) working, before I continue reading the handbook, where I'm sure portage and all such matters are explained... hoping all this time I won't have to return it (so perhaps you understand my frustration)

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7526076#7526076

Quote:
I learned a lot from that session, not just about making sure boot is mounted :)

You bet, that will be one of the primary reasons I intend to help out here or in IRC as well. (Specially if I can finally have my IRC sessions in console mode, how cool is that? 8) )

See you there. : )
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin wrote:
Quote:
You kept referring him to point X from your OP, as if he's some beginner you're helping and not the other way round.

Look, perhaps you misinterpreted my intentions? I believed that to be the most informative and efficient way and I still do. I was quite thorough before I dared bothering you guys here, however humbly, and my OP speaks for it.

I wasn't doubting Neddy's skillz nor telling him to read points in a manual; and you can't possibly ask him to remember every detail of all people's problems he may be trying to help solve for the entire duration of their diverse threads, however superior you may regard him to you.

I don't think this part really helps ("dared bothering.. however superior" sounds miffed), but to answer you in good faith, I wasn't expecting him to remember everything (that's what the thread is for anyhow): it's simply that it seems pretty obvious after you've recompiled the kernel and he's looking at a new dmesg output which he's just asked you for, that questions based on it are for the new kernel.
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I apologize for any perceived offense. I intend following more your way, thanks.

And I; I can be brusque sometimes (and I wasn't offended, so if I gave that impression, apologies again.) Perhaps this may help to see what I'm getting at (it's very useful info for IRC as well.)

Please don't think I'm out to get you; I was just reacting as I would on IRC to get the conversation moving along on the right lines for help to be given. I should have been more conciliatory about it. In mitigation I was quite busy at the time; that means I think I was out of line for there to be anything to mitigate in the first place. This isn't IRC, where this kind of aside would have taken 1 minute, before you carried on discussing with Neddy. So, I'm sorry.

Gentoo loves you (even if some of the users can be grumpy ;-)
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MarcoMarin
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think this part really helps ("dared bothering.. however superior" sounds miffed), but to answer you in good faith,

Thanks Steve, I appreciate the good faith.

I myself can be a little brusque (miffed?) sometimes (i'd probably describe as nagging? lol but english is not my native language, so that could be misunderstood as well).. perhaps i was, not so much busy as frustrated and that may have passed my filters and shown as a little impatient? i dunno :) i do tend to be stubborn though, lol
Quote:
I wasn't expecting him to remember everything (that's what the thread is for anyhow):

yes, but since he jumped in midway and his initial posts displayed some late night typos I assume meant he perceived few people were being able to help and wanted to help but was overworked/tired or busy as yourself.(probb all of the above) It would be understandable if he skimmed through some details which might not seemed as important at first but at the point of my answer they could have become more pertinent?
Quote:
it's simply that it seems pretty obvious after you've recompiled the kernel and he's looking at a new dmesg output which he's just asked you for, that questions based on it are for the new kernel.

I must still disagree this is so obvious(not what kernel it refers but the results would be any different), I only changed the buffer (and even that dmesg I posted afterwards) and other changes were just to get back to the original testing config (placing back the card module and the 8187 module which isnt even my card, but I took them out the previous compile for testing). Moreover, the odds of "non-monotonicity" -- if that refers to the mathematical concept I assume it does -- seem extremely low to me (and still keep sync?), I may be stubborn, though it doesn't make me necessarily wrong : ) in fact the questions were about modprobing which I've done many many times and change even less... but it doesn't matter... The most important point I think it's not so obvious is that perhaps you assume I actually did not compare the outputs and get the same results? (is that rule 1 or 0? : )) Whether I did, we may never know... lol : )

Anyways, as I said above to Neddy, I admit I was frustrated, it's been more than 2 weeks, and before that many other distros had problems accessing the disks or the net (probb not the card, they connected or seem to).. even Arch (which was my 1st choice, being a computer scientist, for their advertised "code correctness", though that remains to be seen and Im sure it may not be a good thing every time lol, considering some things that pass for, or must be done in order to achieve, such "high" status (oh, there I go miffing again :lol: )), .. or booting at all from unetbootin without a cd/dvd drive (dont have 1 there).
I corresponded the Gentoo's Love you mention, at first sight, when it allowed me control over where all the stuff was going (disk access was as simple as it should be, mount!), connected great and even held my hand as I did all this stuff. I wasn't going to let a little wireless card (which actually worked to allow all this during installation, which probb added to my frustration) kill it, by forcing an otherwise working box to have to try yet another distro (and I did really like Gentoo, perhaps I'm more susceptible to colorful CLI, probb the same reason I liked the Sega Master System more than the NES, and the Snes in turn more than the Genesis 8)). And sure enough, just plugging the wired net cable was enough for it to continue a flawless install into X and everything... So maybe that frustration showed through as impatience, I also am sorry if that is the case... I'm just glad now, another beloved reward of Gentoo will be reaped, the advertised (also remains to be seen?;-)) 3-5% performance for self-compiled code! 8) 8) 8)
Quote:
Perhaps this may help to see what I'm getting at (it's very useful info for IRC as well.)

I'm familiar with the 'asking good questions' from raymond =) more material on that is always welcome, thanks...
Quote:
Please don't think I'm out to get you; I was just reacting as I would on IRC to get the conversation moving along on the right lines for help to be given. I should have been more conciliatory about it. In mitigation I was quite busy at the time; that means I think I was out of line for there to be anything to mitigate in the first place. This isn't IRC, where this kind of aside would have taken 1 minute, before you carried on discussing with Neddy. So, I'm sorry.

Yes, in IRC is even more informal.. here too I suppose, but words are a little less ephemeral?
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Gentoo loves you (even if some of the users can be grumpy ;-)

I guess gentoo got another grumpy user though, lol, (I do try to compensate with random humour! :P )

Great. Steve, see you inside. : )
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NeddySeagoon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin,

I would put the typos down to learning the dvorak-uk keyboard. That's my excuse, anyway :)
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MarcoMarin
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There goes rule number 1 again... :roll:

btw, some time ago I've seen a site with a program that used simulated annealing to generate keyboard layouts which minimized distance between frequent letter combinations... you could even use your own set of documents as input (e.g. get language specific layouts... i guess if used for programming languages, lisp would have the parenthesis right on the index fingers. lol)

I suppose (oops :oops: ) though once the brain masters a particular layout, it wouldn't make much of a difference.. except perhaps on hand strain. Have you perceived any difference on Dvorak?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin,

I've only been using dvorak for a few months and beyond using it every day, exclusively, have not done any training.
My hands do feel better but I'm still slower and less accurate than I was on qwerty.
Its supposed to take about a year to do the switch.
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MarcoMarin
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool, I'll ask you again by xmas. : )
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steveL
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarcoMarin wrote:
I myself can be a little brusque (miffed?) sometimes (i'd probably describe as nagging? lol but english is not my native language, so that could be misunderstood as well).. perhaps i was, not so much busy as frustrated and that may have passed my filters and shown as a little impatient? i dunno :) i do tend to be stubborn though, lol

Ah well you're not alone there ;)
Quote:
yes, but since he jumped in midway and his initial posts displayed some late night typos I assume meant he perceived few people were being able to help and wanted to help but was overworked/tired or busy as yourself.(probb all of the above) It would be understandable if he skimmed through some details which might not seemed as important at first but at the point of my answer they could have become more pertinent?

Hehe you'll come to realise that NeddySeagoon is basically the forums-user. I've done quite well just collecting some of his posts together. So, he especially is someone you don't question on the questions, you just answer them and ignore his occasionally woeful speling ;) since he has an encyclopaedic knowledge of Gentoo and Linux that only one other person I know (Griz, hangs out on IRC more) can match, and both of them are too old to beat their chests, or compete about it. Discussion both of them are involved in is in a league of it own.
Quote:
I must still disagree this is so obvious(not what kernel it refers but the results would be any different), I only changed the buffer (and even that dmesg I posted afterwards) and other changes were just to get back to the original testing config (placing back the card module and the 8187 module which isnt even my card, but I took them out the previous compile for testing).

Assume nothing. Honestly it's much easier (for everyone) if you just answer the questions when they're put, based on what is in front of you when they're asked.

By all means have that discussion, about what it might have been, and where you might have gone wrong, with yourself; not with people trying to help you fix it, who usually don't have time for that aspect. If you've gone through that process and found something out, or got stuck, that's when you present a summary of what you've been doing, and that's when people can point out larger issues. That's trickier to do when there's been lots of posts laying out possible dead-ends, so people don't bother so much, ime. That kind of thing works much better on a blog.
Quote:
Moreover, the odds of "non-monotonicity" -- if that refers to the mathematical concept I assume it does -- seem extremely low to me (and still keep sync?), I may be stubborn, though it doesn't make me necessarily wrong : )

Actually that happens a lot, when people change the date/time on their clock for instance (and lord knows what someone's done during the course of an install, or rather their third attempt on it..:) It's why POSIX specifies a CLOCK_MONOTONIC (though it's not required.) See man time.h and man 3p clock_getres if you're interested in the code side.
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I'm just glad now, another beloved reward of Gentoo will be reaped, the advertised (also remains to be seen?;-)) 3-5% performance for self-compiled code!

It will save you an awful lot more time than that, believe me; the major difference is that your machine runs rock-solid if you're on stable, and avoid idiocy like semantic-craptop on KDE, which you can't do elsewhere. Bindists always have weird lib issues, and you reinstall every 6 months for a new set. And god help you if you want to do something not considered "supported" (although the meaning of that word has changed radically in the last 20 years.) For instance try removing polkit from a debian desktop, and you end up with a terminal-only, and no way forward apart from bloat.

With Gentoo you never reinstall. When Gentoo users talk about bugs, they usually mean they couldn't get an upgrade to build. Meantime the rest of your system still runs beautifully. If you're on stable, the fact that it built is usually a good indicator things are okay, for most software. Everything is compiled together, and at build-time all the checks that simply compiling enforces, mean I for one have had practically zero downtime since I started using Gentoo. Simply not building a load of stuff you'll never use, also gives you a bigger performance boost than just the speedups from building for your native processor, as opposed to the base for the arch. Things use less memory since they're not loading a tonne of libs every time, and lower memory usage is what really speeds things up, despite the nu-skool propensity for including the kitchen-sink with the video-player.

It takes a bit of time to a) get comfortable with both the control and the responsibility, and then b) to get past exploring all the options and the code you download, and c) find the setup you really want. Once you have it though, it's a snap to setup more machines, and after 3 or 4 working installs (more about the length of time you maintain them, than how many) you really do have much more confidence with any Linux; only you won't want to go back to them. People who leave, usually after they've borked their unstable system, always end up coming back to Gentoo.
Quote:
I'm familiar with the 'asking good questions' from raymond =) more material on that is always welcome, thanks...

Yeah I find that one not so in your face, while still getting the point across. It invites the reader to join in with the helping, and that's what makes you realise why it's easier just to answer when asked; half the time people don't even remember the previous ins and outs, and why should they? The situation changes, and the questions they ask are actually most of the info: to help you with the inevitable checklists we build up in the back of our minds, as to what the problem might be. Repetition helps you internalize the process, so next time you don't need anyone else's help at all, quite apart from the fact that you need to check again, as it's a different build.

Anyhow, glad we're all (grumpy) friends again ;)

Oh, read this: it's useful info when you're starting out. And get onto IRC: chat.freenode.net if you want to see the real Gentoo community; #gentoo is part of a much broader network, where you can learn just about anything. I originally went online for #bash and got sucked into #gentoo-chat; we hang out in #friendly-coders now, and I drop by #-chat when i need to unwind. I'm 'igli', btw, so drop in whenever. You'll love #gentoo-chat, and #gentoo is where you get instant support on just about anything to do with your Gentoo install; if you're redirected to another #gentoo-* channel, do make sure to check it out too. ##workingset is where you can learn about build-systems, and #gentoo-dev-help for how to script them in ebuilds (which are all bash, so learning #bash is pretty much required.)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

/me looks on and smiles :)
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