Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
[SOLVED] Secondary SATA HD stalls during video playback
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

 
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Kernel & Hardware
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:09 pm    Post subject: [SOLVED] Secondary SATA HD stalls during video playback Reply with quote

Hi all.

I have installed a secondary SATA hard drive in my machine and ever since I noticed while playing video files the video suddenly stalls for a short while (one or two seconds) and then goes on. I initially thought it was a hardware issue but I see no error in the kernel log. This is not a bad block in the file either because rewinding just prior to when the video stalled plays normally. These "pauses" occur on a random basis.

I still don't know if it's a hardware or a kernel-related issue. All I can say is I don't experience it when I play the same video from my main disk, i.e. where Gentoo is installed, with swap, home, everything. The machine still is responsive though. It's only noticed during video playback.

Does anybody have an idea how I can nail down this issue?

FYI: Current kernel is 3.10.7, HD model is ST31000528AS.
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!


Last edited by VinzC on Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:22 pm; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aCOSwt
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2537
Location: Hilbert space

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what does hdparm --direct -tT /dev/sd?? tell on both filesystems ?
what does hdparm -a /dev/sd? tell on both devices ?
what does dumpe2fs -h /dev/sd?? tell on both filesystems ?

Well... tell us a little bit more!
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
what does hdparm --direct -tT /dev/sd?? tell on both filesystems ?
what does hdparm -a /dev/sd? tell on both devices ?
what does dumpe2fs -h /dev/sd?? tell on both filesystems ?

Well... tell us a little bit more!

Thanks for the hints, aCOSwt.

Here you go! (Note read ahead is on with both drives)
hdparm --direct -tT /dev/sda3:
/dev/sda3:
 Timing O_DIRECT cached reads:   464 MB in  2.00 seconds = 231.66 MB/sec
 Timing O_DIRECT disk reads: 200 MB in  1.72 seconds = 116.29 MB/sec

dumpe2fs -h /dev/sda3:

dumpe2fs 1.42 (29-Nov-2011)
Filesystem volume name:   boot
Last mounted on:          <not available>
Filesystem UUID:          72627d6a-eafb-4d94-8dc6-d42b07f0c869
Filesystem magic number:  0xEF53
Filesystem revision #:    1 (dynamic)
Filesystem features:      has_journal ext_attr resize_inode dir_index filetype sparse_super
Filesystem flags:         signed_directory_hash
Default mount options:    (none)
Filesystem state:         clean
Errors behavior:          Continue
Filesystem OS type:       Linux
Inode count:              51200
Block count:              204800
Reserved block count:     10240
Free blocks:              183178
Free inodes:              51168
First block:              1
Block size:               1024
Fragment size:            1024
Reserved GDT blocks:      256
Blocks per group:         8192
Fragments per group:      8192
Inodes per group:         2048
Inode blocks per group:   256
Filesystem created:       Sat Mar 24 11:09:09 2012
Last mount time:          Fri Feb  7 00:33:14 2014
Last write time:          Mon Mar 10 20:23:38 2014
Mount count:              0
Maximum mount count:      39
Last checked:             Mon Mar 10 20:23:38 2014
Check interval:           15552000 (6 months)
Next check after:         Sat Sep  6 21:23:38 2014
Reserved blocks uid:      0 (user root)
Reserved blocks gid:      0 (group root)
First inode:              11
Inode size:             128
Journal inode:            8
Default directory hash:   half_md4
Directory Hash Seed:      e84fb412-9414-4543-b635-1b2ecebed5b1
Journal backup:           inode blocks
Journal features:         journal_incompat_revoke
Journal size:             4113k
Journal length:           4096
Journal sequence:         0x0000017a
Journal start:            0

Now about the «lagging» disk:
hdparm --direct -tT /dev/sdb1:
/dev/sdb1:
 Timing O_DIRECT cached reads:   472 MB in  2.00 seconds = 235.54 MB/sec
 Timing O_DIRECT disk reads: 358 MB in  3.01 seconds = 119.12 MB/sec

dumpe2fs -h /dev/sdb1:

dumpe2fs 1.42 (29-Nov-2011)
Filesystem volume name:   media
Last mounted on:          /media/media
Filesystem UUID:          c3e71afc-dafa-4f5d-ad11-652724a25568
Filesystem magic number:  0xEF53
Filesystem revision #:    1 (dynamic)
Filesystem features:      has_journal ext_attr resize_inode dir_index filetype needs_recovery extent flex_bg sparse_super large_file huge_file uninit_bg dir_nlink extra_isize
Filesystem flags:         signed_directory_hash
Default mount options:    user_xattr acl
Filesystem state:         clean
Errors behavior:          Continue
Filesystem OS type:       Linux
Inode count:              52428800
Block count:              209715200
Reserved block count:     10485760
Free blocks:              67302646
Free inodes:              52421096
First block:              0
Block size:               4096
Fragment size:            4096
Reserved GDT blocks:      974
Blocks per group:         32768
Fragments per group:      32768
Inodes per group:         8192
Inode blocks per group:   512
Flex block group size:    16
Filesystem created:       Wed Jan  8 16:34:20 2014
Last mount time:          Tue Mar 25 18:14:01 2014
Last write time:          Tue Mar 25 18:14:01 2014
Mount count:              55
Maximum mount count:      -1
Last checked:             Fri Jan 10 09:55:36 2014
Check interval:           0 (<none>)
Lifetime writes:          484 GB
Reserved blocks uid:      0 (user root)
Reserved blocks gid:      0 (group root)
First inode:              11
Inode size:             256
Required extra isize:     28
Desired extra isize:      28
Journal inode:            8
Default directory hash:   half_md4
Directory Hash Seed:      52a5955f-192b-42a5-937b-358cae79edc2
Journal backup:           inode blocks
Journal features:         journal_incompat_revoke
Journal size:             128M
Journal length:           32768
Journal sequence:         0x0000167a
Journal start:            1

Hope this helps. One last thing: I use LVM with sda but not with sdb. Filesystem on sda3 (/boot) is ext3. Don't know if that matters though.
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aCOSwt
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2537
Location: Hilbert space

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

- OK then from hdparm's report I conclude that both drives have equivalent throughput. => Hard disk hardware problem unlikely.
- Much surprising is that the "lagging" filesystem shows a blocksize of 4K which should theoretically offer a much better throughput than your 1K blocksize boot filesystem. :?
- If we were tracking µs, I would say that having an inode size of 256 + extra_isize feature do not help challenging with your boot filesystem (inode size=128) but... we are not yet tracking µs.
=> Filesystem's parameters problem unlikely.
Up one level :
What do cat /sys/block/sd?/queue/scheduler and cat /sys/block/sd?/queue/nomerges tell for both devices ?
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
What do cat /sys/block/sd?/queue/scheduler and cat /sys/block/sd?/queue/nomerges tell for both devices ?

Here are the readings:
cat /sys/block/sd?/queue/scheduler:
noop [deadline] cfq bfq
noop [deadline] cfq bfq

cat /sys/block/sd?/queue/nomerges:
0
0

Already feels relieved it doesn't look like a hardware issue. Well, there's always a "but" :D .

EDIT: I've just checked smartctl and it reports a firmware might be available for the lagging drive, maybe that's one hypothesis to investigate?
smartctl -a /dev/sdb:
...
==> WARNING: A firmware update for this drive may be available,
see the following Seagate web pages:
http://knowledge.seagate.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/207931en
http://knowledge.seagate.com/articles/en_US/FAQ/213891en
...

_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might try using either cfq or bfq as default instead of deadline and see if that has an effect.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
You might try using either cfq or bfq as default instead of deadline and see if that has an effect.

Thanks for the hint, too. I guess I can change this without rebooting or recompiling, right?

EDIT: Found http://www.linuxhowtos.org/System/iosched.htm . Will try and report but not earlier than in 1-2 days.
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!


Last edited by VinzC on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to this, yes.
http://www.admon.org/system-tuning/how-to-change-default-io-scheduler/

It's a five year old article, but it should still be accurate, as far as schedulers.

I would assume you need to be root to do it.

Edit to add: If it works and you want it permanent, then either recompile the kernel setting whichever one you want as default.
The article says there is a kernel parm that can be set, but I haven't checked to see if it's still there.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon


Last edited by Anon-E-moose on Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1371

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
You might try using either cfq or bfq as default instead of deadline and see if that has an effect.
Why the hell patching the kernel with bfq in the first place if he uses deadline. It is an intrusive patch ...
_________________
fun2gen2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Anon-E-moose wrote:
You might try using either cfq or bfq as default instead of deadline and see if that has an effect.
Why the hell patching the kernel with bfq in the first place if he uses deadline. It is an intrusive patch ...


Well, it's their choice, so I suppose they have their reasons.
I personally run bfq and have had 0 problems with it.

As far as intrusive patches and software...I'll save it for another thread. :wink:
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1371

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think gentoo-sources does include the bfq patch: Perhaps there has to be a .config policy forcing bfq then ...

@VinzC, if your system runs well with bfq this is worth mentioning at https://bugs.gentoo.org/
_________________
fun2gen2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been using zen sources, and they include bfq.

Within the config section of the kernel, General Setup -> CPU Scheduler whichever one you select becomes the default.

Edit to add: The above was for the cpu scheduler :oops:

IO scheduler is under "Enable the block layer -> IO Schedulers"
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon


Last edited by Anon-E-moose on Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back after a some testing.
Anon-E-moose wrote:
You might try using either cfq or bfq as default instead of deadline and see if that has an effect.
ulenrich wrote:
Why the hell patching the kernel with bfq in the first place if he uses deadline. It is an intrusive patch ...

First off, bfq, cfq, as, deadline, well, consider that's Chinese to me. Being no hardware specialist I nevertheless dug and actually read the kernel documentation about these schedulers. That was *my* personal choice to select deadline as I (thought I understood that I) wanted performance. I didn't (and still don't) bother why bfq is here while I chose deadline. I made an educated guess. Or not. But who cares.

I've been using deadline for quite some time and it's only now that I have a secondary disk that the issue occurred. Maybe deadline doesn't play well when there's more than one disk with that scheduler. I don't know. Don't care either. I'll leave this question to specialists.

In the end, I read the (F***) documentation about those schedulers, which is what all good Linux user is meant to do, right :D ? So I have come up with a slight change. I left sdb (media disk) with deadline while I set sda (main disk) to cfq. Why? Because if I understood correctly, deadline stresses on punctuality while others stress on fairness. With my media disk I want the smallest latency while my main disk can wait a little. I can bear video lag less than a small latency in daily desktop usage. So far, no lag observed yet.

Anyway thanks a lot guys for your help and precious hints.

Still testing.

EDIT: Oh, and yes, Gentoo Sources come with BFQ patch.
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!


Last edited by VinzC on Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:02 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have cfq and bfq compiled in the kernel, but I get excellent performance with bfq so I just leave it at that.
It is just a modification with a little tweaking of cfq though.

Hope it all works out.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
I have cfq and bfq compiled in the kernel, but I get excellent performance with bfq so I just leave it at that.
It is just a modification with a little tweaking of cfq though.

Hope it all works out.

I'll certainly go further than just deadline. So far it is more a sef-check to see if my understanding is correct — I'm already so glad Linux allowed me to get thus far in learning about the system. I'm also curious as to how deadline compares with cfq and bfq. Not that I care that much on the technical aspects but I'll see if I get lagging and which combination(s) give(s) me what I want.
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ulenrich
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 10 Oct 2010
Posts: 1371

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, please try to add on your grub cmdline:
---
elevator= [IOSCHED]
Format: {"cfq" | "deadline" | "noop"}
---
and of course bfq. Details of each of them look at files:
/usr/src/linux/Documentation/block/cfq-iosched.txt
... and alike: Many thing you can tune.
_________________
fun2gen2
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VinzC, do keep us informed of how your tests go.

I'm sure the info will be helpful to many.

Edit to add: For a brief intro to bfq. http://algo.ing.unimo.it/people/paolo/disk_sched/
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back again after some more testing.

Did 2 more:
  1. bfq for both drives
  2. bfq for sda (main) and deadline for sdb (media)
With configuration 1. I got random slight glitches, very short but perceptible, i.e. milliseconds maybe. In short no very long pauses. With configuration 2. everything ran smoothly and I got not the slightest glitch at all, video ran perfectly.

So my temporarily definite conclusion is that deadline fits best with video storage *and* the other disks use ?fq schedulers. From my observations, there should be only one disk running with the deadline scheduler. YMMV though. With no specific constraint, ?fq on all disks is a wise choice. With only one disk, deadline gives better [i.e. more stable] throughput.

In short:
Quote:
if you have multiple disks, use deadline with [the one] disk that needs stable throughput and lowest latency, like video streaming use cases, especially HD. Otherwise set one of [cb]fq globally.

Context, of course being gentoo-sources-3.10.* . Haven't tried a more recent kernel nor other kernel sources. Yet...
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, that's impressive.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Thanks, that's impressive.

It's a common... «detail» I've often seen in benchmarks in fact. These mainly focus on throughput and performance but that's really just one aspect of a filesystem's features. Latency (from what I've seen and I've seen not that much to be honest) is not quite focused on. But it, along with throughput stability, has a non negligible impact on user experience but it's only in specific contexts and you cannot measure everything and all cases. Maximizing throughput is important when transferring files since small pauses really do not matter. However it's a totally different thing when watching a video, for instance. I'm glad I went through this anyway as it's been quite instructive, thanks to all of your hints, guys.

To mods: wouldn't this topic be a good candidate for sticky-ness ;) ?
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aCOSwt
Bodhisattva
Bodhisattva


Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2537
Location: Hilbert space

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VinzC wrote:
To mods: wouldn't this topic be a good candidate for sticky-ness ;) ?

Not yet!
First because, for having oriented a direction on which everybody embarked, I am still not convinzc that the root cause has actually been found.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Anon-E-moose
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 3793
Location: Dallas area

PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stickies aren't always because a problem is solved but because a discussion or points brought out has some benefit to other users in general or other views/help may show up. IMO.
_________________
Asus m5a99fx, FX 8320 - nouveau & radeon, oss4
Acer laptop E5-575, i3-7100u - i965, alsa
---both---
5.0.13 zen kernel, profile 17.0 (no-pie) amd64-no-multilib
gcc 8.2.0, eudev, openrc, openbox, palemoon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
Stickies aren't always because a problem is solved but because a discussion or points brought out has some benefit to other users in general or other views/help may show up. IMO.

No problemo.

Anyway I spoke too soon. The problem is back. Testing phase probably was not thorough enough and the issue occurred again after a couple of hours watching videos on the same disk. I've installed smartmon-tools just in case. So my conclusions might be valid in cases but this one :D .
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VinzC
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 4977
Location: Dark side of the mood

PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem is finally fixed. I upgraded the second disk's firmware and now the problem seems to be gone definitely. I played a few hours video files without a hickup. Running smartctl against the drive indeed showed it needed a firmware upgraded, as I wrote earlier. I just followed the instructions hinted by the links.

I had also noticed that smartctl was delivering its information slower when querying the second hard drive, 1-2 seconds in fact. Now smartctl -a /dev/sdb is immediate. The firmware version was <something>42. Now it's CC49.

VinzC wrote:
To mods: wouldn't this topic be a good candidate for sticky-ness ;) ?

aCOSwt wrote:
Not yet!
First because, for having oriented a direction on which everybody embarked, I am still not convinzc that the root cause has actually been found.

LOL... sorry, I've just noticed the pun :D . Nice one.
_________________
Gentoo addict: tomorrow I quit, I promise!... Just one more emerge...
1739!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Kernel & Hardware All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum