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miroR
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject: Likely: musl based install on my old systems? Reply with quote

Draft: uClinc based Lilblue on my old systems?
=============================================

That title, above, the draft title, of this topic will probably change to reflect the choice that at this time I don't know which I will end up with (nor which direction this quest will lead me). Just the title, but I'll leave what the title was in this body of the post, will add reason/link to explanation for the change, possibly, later.

Namely, after having elready worded just about all you can see in this first post below, I found and studied more information on the subject.

I cannot now simply rewrite all the post, that can not be done right, so bear in mind that some of the next is actually different than I thought, and some questiona I found the answers for. Thank you.

Hi everybody!

I posted early in some, Easter-other?-Western U.S. time (Jesus, I forgot where Gentoo is based... old age...), last night in CEST, on the topic that I learned so much from:
When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-981256-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-425.html#7592902

You may be interested to read the link in that above post of the title:
"Defeat and Hope for GNU/Linux", which I'm not replicating here. It's what the majority of the participants in the discussion on the topic "When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?" probably would agree, as it is knowledge I learned from them and links they gave.

Just the latest where I reached with my quest, and I hope to have more concrete and well formulated questions for this topic.

Briefly skim through the following if you have little time:
Grsecurity/Pax installation on Debian GNU/Linux
http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=108616&p=548760#p548760

More relevant information here:
Tips on Grsecurity installation for Debian newbies
https://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3835&p=14303#p14303

As you can read in the last of the above links, Lilblue looks very promissing to me.

Project:Hardened uClibc/Lilblue
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened_uClibc/Lilblue
( if you see the date there, it's last year's, but read on, it was beeing worked on, last report I found below is four months ago )

I, to some extent, understand the excellence of Grsecurity/Pax, it's the sole option I subscribe. I wouldn't go without it on my systems at all. Nothing could replace Grsec in my computing.

Now: uClibc instead of glibc? If it is by blueness, I'm _very_ hopeful.

I've searched and found, on these forums, only khayyam saying in March 2014 something on the lines how uClibc and/or Lilblue were getting, wait, read what I found:

[ small Gentoo ]
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7524264-highlight-uclibc+blueness.html#7524264

But I haven't been able to find more recent information.

So, I'm interested in real system experience from people who have already installed and are running Lilblue. Any tips, any reports on how they're faring with it, are there any drawbacks (there always are), the hurdles that a non-expert user like me may find somewhat daunting... ?

I need to search my old posts now, to be able to tell you on which hardware I am looking to install Lilblue on. That's next.

One important thing too. I plan on, sure, Air-Gapped Installation, will be another tentative, and, that harware is an cca 6 to 8 years old type of MBO based system.

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

============== a tip for new Gentoo installers ==============
Lest I forget (this is for other people weighing their options, there's still a lot of folks who go the Grsec way and since non-systemD-estruction/poetteringware options in the GNU/Linux wre getting slimmer, there, IMO, are bound to be a few ending up on this page:
somewhere some of the participant in the "When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?"-entitled topic, link is on top, said how he (no she's on the discussion; Tractor Girl, are you the only clever girl around? ;-) just joking, there's also the girl py-ro on these forums, and sure others who I haven't met ...

Pls. don't misunderstand the above banter, I respect you people, boys and girls!

...I was saying, this was for other people, not for those I seek advice/experience giving/telling from... I can't find where because it's on one of 18 long pages to search on, but on some of those 18 pages of that first link in this post, the link of the title "When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?", somebody said what to do first when installing Gentoo, and that is: replace nano with vim (I do that also first thing, but that is not counter-poetteringware intrinsic), and, this is important, will be no more poetteringware then:

replace udev with eudev.

Just a short tip lest I forget.
( This tip is general, does or does not apply to Lilblue --that I don't know yet--, but does apply to general Gentoo install. )

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
--
publictimestamp.org/ptb/PTB-21274 sha256 2014-08-02 15:01:45
51DDD70B6FE074B066B9129C87A98079711CDA8BE7BFF3C68D1C10906D40268A
======== cut out all underneath here if verifying hashes =======
The file with clear text above, Gentoo_140802_Lilblue.txt (publictimestamped with the wrong title by mistake --but right hashes ) has Pulblictimestamp # 1236980

This is draft not in the sense that the text will be changed, but of (the uncertain) direction (to go).
So, next, I'll be able to tell more.
============== changed title to =============
Likely: musl based install on my old systems?


Last edited by miroR on Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please stop with the draft nonsense; learn to edit your original post to keep it updated, instead of duplicating N versions of cruft across the site or a thread. That's what the little "edit" button in the top right is for.

No, I don't want to discuss this. If you want to ignore the advice, as is your right, go ahead and do so without an essay about it.
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miroR
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Place for Criticism Unhelpful/Damaging to Topics Here, pls.!
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7593384.html#7593384

Honestly, I need more time to understand whether it applies here:

When (and if) Gentoo will switch to systemd?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7593370.html#7593152
just like I wrote there in reply.

However, the next criticism, pls. not where it halts my arduous effort at understanding things!

And, yes, this did put me off. Only telling that I lost tthe track what I was doing... Not blaming... After all, I got the info that I really really needed.
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
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miroR
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So let's hit the nail on the head, as the saying in the dominant Anglo-Saxon culture goes.

Wircklich möchte ich Deutsche schprachen, es is langweilich zu mir immer Englisch schprachen. Es ist auch möglich das die Deutsche vileicht für einmail eine Lezion geben gegen die NSA für Americanische leute...
I wish... It'll never happen... I only wish...

That's based on the information I recovered from:

Anthony G. Basile
Tor-ramdisk: a tiny embedded image to host a tor relay
http://blogs.gentoo.org/blueness/2014/05/23/tor-ramdisk-a-tiny-embedded-image-to-host-a-tor-relay-or-exit/#utm_source=feed&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=feed
[1]

It's broken German and I really miss the Teutonic culture. Sometimes change is necessary. But, apart from my own Croatian, and Italian (somewhat rusted due to lack of use), it's only English that I really speak well...

Jokes aside now. My plans fall apart, probably. No, I don't want to install what is fine if you have it, but which is only maintained and does not have future due to flaws in uClibc (IIUC):

Anthony G. Basile
Lilblue Linux: release 20140520
http://blogs.gentoo.org/blueness/2014/05/24/lilblue-linux-release-20140520/#utm_source=feed&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=feed

That one closest link above from these words is what I understood in the way how I broached this section of the topic right after "Jokes aside now.".

And my dilemma has now only grown.

Because...
Project:Hardened musl
https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Hardened_musl
...is not really a complete replacement for Lilblue. There reads:

Quote:

How glibc, uClibc and musl compare on the various points of interest is complex and something that will probably be debated forever.

and further below
Quote:

Unlike the situation with uClibc, where pretty much every package in the Gentoo portage tree "just builds", musl's adherence to standards means that many packages which deviate from those standards, primarily POSIX, need some patching. Most of this is minor, like the location of header files, but some is more substantial.

And there's the overlay to use for that:
http://git.overlays.gentoo.org/gitweb/?p=proj/hardened-dev.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/musl

It does, however, look so attractive, I have to say. (But more information is needed.)

Also, I like and appreciate when projects stick to standards. That's always, well, almost always, better in the long run...

So my questions, it you read the one in italics paragraph of the previous post, is rather different... Again rushing ahead too fast, no not fast, it's just that I realized it only now... Sorry for interrupting my stream of thoughts...

Before picking up to say what my questions will now be, I have to go and search if I can find any answers for me, since the query I now have not yet searched the Forums for, is on the keyword musl.

But I owe the gentle reader another completion that I promised in the previous, the first, post of this topic.

And that is, I also have to search and find where I have a whole topic dedicated to my switching from the old MBO to the new MBOs when I bought the new ones some two years ago.

So, this is the harware of the old systems (three systems, same type MBO):
Use old amd64 gentoo image on new amd64 hardware, possible?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-940916.html
I don't think I need to check in details, but it's vaguely that type of processor and certainly exactly that type of MBO.

Would it be faster with musl than it would be glibc, the installation? Because slow it would be certainly be, compiling on Abit AT8-32X with that kind of old Athlon.

And on musl, I found this much:

Miniature userspace?
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7571418-highlight-musl.html#7571418
Quote:
... Aboriginal builds with uClibc (though its currently migrating to musl)


eudev vs udev - current user perspectives
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7526224-highlight-musl.html#7526180
Quote:
Also I make sure that we stick to close to standards and that eudev compiles against uclibc and musl.


will probably be needing (if I decide to go that way):
small Gentoo
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7524264-highlight-uclibc+blueness.html
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/x86/musl/

But of course, for my case it's:
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/amd64/musl/
Code:

[TXT]   HOWTO   11-Jun-2014 08:19    1.9K
[ ]   stage3-amd64-musl-hardened-20140627.tar.bz2   28-Jun-2014 11:26    148M
[ ]   stage3-amd64-musl-hardened-20140627.tar.bz2.CONTENTS   28-Jun-2014 11:26    3.7M
[ ]   stage3-amd64-musl-hardened-20140627.tar.bz2.DIGESTS   28-Jun-2014 11:25    1.1K
[ ]   stage3-amd64-musl-vanilla-20140627.tar.bz2   28-Jun-2014 11:25    145M
[ ]   stage3-amd64-musl-vanilla-20140627.tar.bz2.CONTENTS   28-Jun-2014 11:25    3.7M
[ ]   stage3-amd64-musl-vanilla-20140627.tar.bz2.DIGESTS   28-Jun-2014 11:25    1.1K

And let's see the HOWTO:
http://distfiles.gentoo.org/experimental/amd64/musl/HOWTO

What I don't get, is why is there that private class address in the howto:
192.168.3.1
?

I mean, I really have the whole private Gentoo mirror on my SOHO, as can be read on:
Air-Gapped Gentoo Install, Tentativs
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-987268.html
somewhere. [2]

Sure, I don't have the overlay on my private SOHO mirror...

And I only go the Air-Gapped way. No it's not btwn me and Gentoo, it's the long way where things can happen in btwn, that long way is what I don't trust. I currently even have some... one of those firewalls that can not be turned off, which doesn't turn off even though shows in the GUI that it is turned off, on my router which I access internet from...

Iskon, what's happening in your secret rooms on these matters? Why don't you spies leave me alone. Iskon Croatia is my provider... Ah, let it be...

More reasons for Air-Gapped install are on that first of my "Air-Gapped Install, Tentative" topics. I'll reproduce the important link here:
grsec: halting the system due to suspicious kernel crash
http://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3709

And just couple such indisputable "anomalies" that with Debian Jessie gone windozed (verb, passive), in which Debian where links are sought even after I shut down the browser and no iceweasel processes are seen if issued:
Code:
$ top

or if issued:
Code:
$ ps aux | grep iceweasel


but pcapdump command catches how links are sought to connect to that I didn't initiate for in my iceweasel, minutes after the browser is shut.

(but I didn't investigate further. I hope to God they don't steal my GPG keys. Moving data from connected online systems only through DVD burning with growisofs... So they can't easily infect my SOHO...).

Those issues are still the same old reason for my going Air-Gapped again.

Now, the question is this. Can I somehow download the necessary overlay for my installation onto my Debian. Haven't done that yet.

I'll study that too.

Corrections to this post can only be done beneath the line that says "cut if verifying hashes" nearer to bottom... because the cleartext will next be publictimestamped.

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr

=====================================================
[1] No, I haven't, I'm winding you up, gentle reader, and you should start learning either Ukrainian, or at least German. Enough of your dominance, Anglo-Saxons! So you have a little homework. Namely there is only one or two words there that you understand. Pls. apply harder, and study!
But that is one beautiful attitude that blueness has. May you have all you need to shine even brighter in Gentoo community, brother, if I may sey so with true respect!
[2] That post clearly shows how I wondered very much around before I understood what to do, how I squinted and squinted to finally start clearly seeing and doing the right things. Why is that so hard to understand? I understand it's a pain to wait for someone to wonder a whole day because he can't make the half hour journey straight, but, like you can see Krinn did there, but for God's sake, don't blame it on the wanderer who exhausted himself to find the right way!

--
publictimestamp.org/ptb/PTB-21277 sha256 2014-08-03 00:01:45
4B596B8417596A6936614F503B6DDAA34928C036704E4A32C2E03E7B33048CF5
====== cut out all underneath this line (included) if verifying hashes =======
file Gentoo_140803_musl.txt corresponding to text above has
Publictimestamp # 1237046
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is that version 2, or is it additional information?

It's good to document stuff, but it's not good to ramble on in stream-of-consciousness mode. It simply turns your readers off, and if you get a reputation for doing it, people will simply ignore posts authored by you. The odd aside is okay, but you seem to have a habit of very long, very rambling posts across various sites. Consider using a blog for some of the "content".
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miroR
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Is that version 2, or is it additional information?

It's good to document stuff, but it's not good to ramble on in stream-of-consciousness mode. It simply turns your readers off, and if you get a reputation for doing it, people will simply ignore posts authored by you. The odd aside is okay, but you seem to have a habit of very long, very rambling posts across various sites. Consider using a blog for some of the "content".

You have some points above and in this one:
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-981256-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-425.html#7593620
Really not all the points.
You're holding back here, I kindly asked, pls. put it there.
What help did you really provide to what I need? This is not helpful, but detrimental to the topic.
Pls. read, in a while, and reply if you want, Off the Wall, again:
Place for Criticism not Helpful, and/or Damaging Here, pls.!
https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7593384.html#7593384
Thank you!
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
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shazeal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Is that version 2, or is it additional information?

It's good to document stuff, but it's not good to ramble on in stream-of-consciousness mode. It simply turns your readers off, and if you get a reputation for doing it, people will simply ignore posts authored by you. The odd aside is okay, but you seem to have a habit of very long, very rambling posts across various sites. Consider using a blog for some of the "content".


I am starting to think this is actually a spambot posting all this. I really cannot make any sense of what it is writing, it seems like it's talking about something to do with Linux but I fail to see what?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tl;dr
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miroR
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm working on things around this.

Namely I need to try and understand things that are really not for beginners and I'm just not that advanced.

I will be grateful if anybody who has tried musl install looks into this, sifts our the now obviously not necessary remarks and unsuccessful jokes of mine (done in good faith though), and tells more on how to proceed.

If not, and if I make it on my own, I'll tell all I can for other users.

It might really take me time. I work pretty slowly, am rather old and am often not very healthy.

Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
www.CroatiaFidelis.hr
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