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Do you want systemd as default on Gentoo?
I <3 systemd!! I want Gentoo to switch!!
12%
 12%  [ 26 ]
Get that horse-crap away from Gentoo as far as possible!
87%
 87%  [ 186 ]
Total Votes : 212

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Sulman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
Shamus397 wrote:
More than a shred of evidence. You can blindly believe the Gnome guys, or you can open your eyes. :P

OMG...The quote/link from LP about Gentoo in that thread actually reads like a threat. FFS. That rant on the LKML referring to him as "a f****ing tool" was being way to nice. There just are no words...at least none appropriate in public...


I have never read that before. Quite nasty, actually. If you follow the thread through his responses are often quite difficult.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shamus397 wrote:
More than a shred of evidence. You can blindly believe the Gnome guys, or you can open your eyes. :P

A-ha.
Quote:
I would like to state that nothing critical is missing. GNOME 3.12 in Funtoo is the full experience with minimal divergence.

That doesn't read like
Shamus397 wrote:
The fact that the Funtoo guys got rid of *all* the systemd hooks *without* losing any functionality alone proves it to me.
at all.

Whatever 'minimal divergence' means to you, might be a whole lot for someone else. Until you find out that e.g. suspend is missing and shout "fire" yourself.


I do not need to 'open my eyes' - it's a simple assessment: Do I believe the maintainers, who need to overlook all of their realm, or some users who *will* be satisfied by a subset of apps, functionality and whatnot.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well it sounds like a flame war topic.

In my point I do not need such awesome full blown software like systemd.

I only use a few components and therfore hte old proven system with single components works better.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
well it sounds like a flame war topic.

Not really. Even an innocent bystander like me does not fail to see the lots of `systemd?` and (even if masked) `!openrc-force?` conditional systemd deps for Gnome packages in Gentoo, it seems like complaints about Gnome mostly revolve around not knowing or wanting to unmask the required use flag.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tw04l124 wrote:
In my point I do not need such awesome full blown software like systemd.


Most don't but it doesn't stop the fanboi trolls from continuing to try and stir up dissent
on any thread mentioning systemd so that yet another thread gets locked.
They're not very subtle nor smart about it other than in their own little minds.

Edit to add: I do think that threads like this get started up knowing that some will voice their opinion to not use or care about using systemd,
which then gives the fanbois and trolls an "excuse" to come in with their not so subtle jibes, insults and talk that we just don't know
a good thing when we see it. All one has to do is look at the participants in the last 1/2 dozen or so threads "about" systemd.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
http://0pointer.de/public/gnomeasia2014.pdf
tld : just jump at page 19 and i think page 78 have a good hint too.

Actually, all you need is the combined result of page "6". Which then make pages 7-8 and onward almost laughable, if this wasn't so serious.
Again, if people can find the time, watch a good number of their videos, particularly with regards on 'security'.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Navar wrote:
krinn wrote:
http://0pointer.de/public/gnomeasia2014.pdf
tld : just jump at page 19 and i think page 78 have a good hint too.

Actually, all you need is the combined result of page "6". Which then make pages 7-8 and onward almost laughable, if this wasn't so serious.
Again, if people can find the time, watch a good number of their videos, particularly with regards on 'security'.


Well, there it is.

So, hypothetically, who thinks they will do their own spin, eventually? I can't see it continuing like this.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
tw04l124 wrote:
In my point I do not need such awesome full blown software like systemd.


Most don't but it doesn't stop the fanboi trolls from continuing to try and stir up dissent
on any thread mentioning systemd so that yet another thread gets locked.
They're not very subtle nor smart about it other than in their own little minds.

Edit to add: I do think that threads like this get started up knowing that some will voice their opinion to not use or care about using systemd,
which then gives the fanbois and trolls an "excuse" to come in with their not so subtle jibes, insults and talk that we just don't know
a good thing when we see it. All one has to do is look at the participants in the last 1/2 dozen or so threads "about" systemd.


It's not just that, but also the opportunity to, once again, claim that everything not-systemd is utterly inferior and needs to play catchup with it. How did the world ever make it this far with absolutely nothing offering parity with systemd's totally awesome features?

It's a way to frame the issue to keep everyone else constantly on the defensive so it appears that systemd is superior and everything else is inferior, much like the often debunked halloween-documentesque FAQ at fdo. It isn't superior, it's all purely a political campaign using the same tactics founds in politics. It is a relentless campaign which exists solely to eliminate anything non-systemd. After all, if it is so great, why are its most vocal proponents so worried that other options exist at all? Why worry about one of a small handful of distros that doesn't force it on its users, particularly when it offers it as an option for those that do want it?

Smells like astroturf to me.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
It is a relentless campaign which exists solely to eliminate anything non-systemd. After all, if it is so great, why are its most vocal proponents so worried that other options exist at all? Why worry about one of a small handful of distros that doesn't force it on its users, particularly when it offers it as an option for those that do want it?


Indeed.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some nice corporate-speak. Please allow me to translate:

Quote:
Our objectives
Turning Linux from a bag of bits into a competitive General Purpose Operating System.

Embrace. Finally making 'Linux' entirely ours. We have been trying to do this for a very long time. There is a lot of money riding on this. Given our numerous contributions, it's essentially ours anyway.
Quote:
Building the Internet’s Next Generation OS

This directly supports our future planned profit margin gains and eventual monopoly. And entities more powerful are greatly supporting us in our desires to succeed.
Quote:
Unifying pointless differences between distributions

Extend. No one should be fired for buying into RedHat. Everyone should be fired for not buying into RedHat.
Quote:
Bringing innovation back to the core OS

Extinguish. Because large vertically integrated monopolistic situations always (sic) bring innovation back into the 'core'. The ties that bind. Real translation: bringing everyone, whether they want to or not, into our fold of control.
--
You can't 'innovate' out of (anything) when forced into a tunnel by budgetary and corporate culture constraints.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
if it is so great, why are its most vocal proponents so worried that other options exist at all? Why worry about one of a small handful of distros that doesn't force it on its users, particularly when it offers it as an option for those that do want it?

  • Because winning by merit is never something forced upon. Market control and the money gained from such have nothing to do with adoption by merit and such adoption takes too long in business.
  • Because perceived as (vocal) minority or not, they are; there, have longstanding history, working functional alternatives, and utilized by some big market competition.
  • Because of our nature mentioned prior, we are a significant threat. It is because of the desire of this nature away from theirs that the basis for Gentoo was created. The more attention diverted to us, intentionally sought or not, the larger and more publicized a threat we become. It'd be best if we didn't have their attention.
  • Finally, because of the nature of our structure. We're not another competing business entity to discredit and shareholders to answer to. We're closer to an organization like GNU, and that can cause them headaches. Their options are only to ignore, discredit, convert or find a way to ultimately destroy.
There's not a whole lot different about this situation versus the oil and gas industry pushing hydraulic fracturing.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Why worry about one of a small handful of distros that doesn't force it on its users, particularly when it offers it as an option for those that do want it?
Yup. It must suck to know you can't win the way open source projects have in the past...on actual merits. You end up having to rely on trolls, propaganda, FUD, endless "myth" debunking, and a rich sugar-daddy distro that wants Linux to become their Windows Server 2014.
mrbassie wrote:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/choose-your-side-the-linux-divide-248950
Thanks for the link. I find it a little strange that that guys previous article on the topic (linked in that one) ranked at the top of Google news, yet this one seems to have been eclipsed by a pretty lame itworld article framing it as an "old vs. young" Linux user issue...talk about astoturf.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tld wrote:
saellaven wrote:
Why worry about one of a small handful of distros that doesn't force it on its users, particularly when it offers it as an option for those that do want it?
Yup. It must suck to know you can't win the way open source projects have in the past...on actual merits. You end up having to rely on trolls, propaganda, FUD, endless "myth" debunking, and a rich sugar-daddy distro that wants Linux to become their Windows Server 2014.
mrbassie wrote:
http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/choose-your-side-the-linux-divide-248950
Thanks for the link. I find it a little strange that that guys previous article on the topic (linked in that one) ranked at the top of Google news, yet this one seems to have been eclipsed by a pretty lame itworld article framing it as an "old vs. young" Linux user issue...talk about astoturf.


always sort by date
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems clear to me that systemd exists only for political reasons, and there is an agenda behind it. It doesn't help that the evangelist is quite arrogant about it, but that's probably what his employer is paying him for.

Call it the old way if you like, but I prefer the unix way to keep things simple. It reminds me of the old cars, when you could start the engine with a crank. Even when some important components where dead, there still was a solution to make it work, because it was simple and modular enough. Systemd is like the new all-electronic cars: a small electric problem, or even a sensor malfunction, will render it useless for now (even if still repairable in some way).

For years I've been advocating the use of linux, both in professional and private circles. And it's not always easy to try to make people think differently. But today, I'm not motivated anymore, because the kind of behaviour behind the pushing of systemd is not in accord with my views of the open source world: freedom of choice and an open debate on technical arguments.

So, if Gentoo switch to systemd, so be it, I'll leave for something else, because it will be the only *choice* left.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Assurancetourix wrote:
It seems clear to me that systemd exists only for political reasons, and there is an agenda behind it.


Systemd exists because it solves problems and in a better way than the alternatives, despite what the anti-systemd crowd thinks. Which sadly includes site admins that let these anti-systemd circle jerks continue. OpenRC on Gentoo is going no where. Gentoo devs aren't forcing you to use systemd. Devs of other projects however might, but that's because they decided to use systemd as part of their package and Gentoo devs don't want to incur the extra dev time of maintaining a systemd-less package (hey, they already are doing eudev) More unnecessary dev time = greater dev burn out. This thread is a such an obvious anti-systemd circle jerk post I have no idea how it got to 3 pages.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mackal wrote:

Systemd exists because it solves problems and in a better way than the alternatives, despite what the anti-systemd crowd thinks.


If it works for you, I'm happy... that's wonderful.

That it works for you doesn't mean it solves problems or is a better way for everyone. Don't you find it rather arrogant and presumptive to assume so?

Quote:
Which sadly includes site admins that let these anti-systemd circle jerks continue. OpenRC on Gentoo is going no where.


Could it be that the site admins have a different perspective than you and, in your arrogance, you refuse to acknowledge that maybe there is some validity to their perspective? Did you stop to consider that these "anti-systemd circle jerks" wouldn't exist at all if not for the systemd proponents trying to force their choice on everyone, in part, by starting virtually every one of these threads?

Could it be that OpenRC is being intentionally held back on Gentoo because its lead dev isn't interested in OpenRC and is deliberately holding back existing patches that increase its robustness for political reasons?

Quote:

Gentoo devs aren't forcing you to use systemd. Devs of other projects however might, but that's because they decided to use systemd as part of their package and Gentoo devs don't want to incur the extra dev time of maintaining a systemd-less package (hey, they already are doing eudev) More unnecessary dev time = greater dev burn out.


RH controls considerable amounts of upstream packages and developers... it is RH that is choosing to force systemd on others due to the political and profit motive they would achieve.

Quote:
This thread is a such an obvious anti-systemd circle jerk post I have no idea how it got to 3 pages.


Most of them get longer than 3 pages... precisely because the "anti-systemd" crowd has been forced to openly hold its ground because the pro-systemd crowd isn't happy enough to have the option of systemd, they want to eliminate all other options and ONLY allow systemd, at which point, it's foolish to any distro other than RH or its immediate derivatives to exist in the first place.

Do we get the thread locked now, so, once again, in 2-3 weeks, some proponent of systemd can reiterate again that choice should not exist and the cycle can start all over?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
Quote:
This thread is a such an obvious anti-systemd circle jerk post I have no idea how it got to 3 pages.


Most of them get longer than 3 pages...


Sssshhh, don't tell him that the multiple posts he himself has made in this circle-jerk of a thread has helped balloon it to 3 pages.
I'm not sure he could handle an answer with that much truth to it. Best to just let him continue to work his arm. :wink:
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anon-E-moose wrote:
saellaven wrote:
Quote:
This thread is a such an obvious anti-systemd circle jerk post I have no idea how it got to 3 pages.


Most of them get longer than 3 pages...


Sssshhh, don't tell him that the multiple posts he himself has made in this circle-jerk of a thread has helped balloon it to 3 pages.
I'm not sure he could handle an answer with that much truth to it. Best to just let him continue to work his arm. :wink:


I'm fully aware of the posts I made.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mackal

mackal wrote:
Systemd exists because it solves problems and in a better way than the alternatives ...


I'll need to pick you up on that point. You need to define "better" and provide some metrics to support your so far, unfounded assertion.
It like saying Windows is better than Linux with no supporting metrics.

To me it looks like a rerun of VHS being better than Betamax. It was technically inferior but like systemd, had much better marketing.
systemd may be better than other init systems but only for vanishingly small values of "better".

Use whatever works for you.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
Use whatever works for you.


Those of us who have chosen not to use systemd have that philosophy.
Unfortunately the fanbois won't let others make their choice or say anything about it, at least without some of what we've just seen.
Which makes me wonder re someones query previously, "what are they so afraid of"? Choice, at least a choice they don't think others should have.

There have been many posts in the past "extolling the virtues of sysd", they don't get trotted out much anymore.
Why? Because they were pretty much debunked or proven to be not all they were touted to be.

I'm happy for the people for whom systemd fulfills/fulfilled "their need(s)".
I just wonder why they think that I should use it when it doesn't fulfill any of my needs.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NeddySeagoon wrote:
mackal

mackal wrote:
Systemd exists because it solves problems and in a better way than the alternatives ...


I'll need to pick you up on that point.


Mostly systemd-logind is probably the only real solution that I would argue is pretty much definitely better. (Setting up ConsoleKit sucked, and more devs are depending on systemd-logind for solving issues) The rest is very much opinion based. I personally have no issues with systemd as an init solution. I do think using a binary journal is a bit iffy, but I do understand why they did it. Other than that, everything else works nicely and I have no issues with. I like the idea of namespacing services out with cgroups (OpenRC can do this too I believe?) I like having nice stable parallel init, OpenRC warns against enabling. OpenRC runscripts are a load better than normal SysV init scripts, but generally you don't need the flexibility, hence systemd services just being basically .ini files.

NeedySeagoon wrote:
Use whatever works for you.


I agree with this, which makes most of these discussions pointless. Instead of circle jerking about systemd being the worst because upstream devs decided to depend on it, complain upstream, but they probably won't listen to that :P
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mackal wrote:

NeedySeagoon wrote:
Use whatever works for you.


I agree with this, which makes most of these discussions pointless. Instead of circle jerking about systemd being the worst because upstream devs decided to depend on it, complain upstream, but they probably won't listen to that :P


and yet, these discussions keep happening, not because of the people that don't want systemd, but because of the people that insist everyone else be forced to use it.

So you took the time to specifically complain about "the anti-systemd people" because??? We just won't roll over and accept something we believe to be inferior for our use? It's the fault of "the anti-systemd people" that the pro-systemd people want to eliminate long standing options?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Logind was ripped out of an earlier systemd incarnation (by Ubuntu IIRC) and with the next iteration of systemd
they (LP, et al) made it much harder to separate out one of the components of this supposedly modular software.
That was a political choice, there was no other reason for it.

Logind could have been made to stand on it's own, it didn't need to be combined with init, logging, cgroup management, etc.
To combine it all into one and make systemd what it is now was a political choice.

From what I understand the bsd crowd is working towards software that will be
a drop in replacement for some of the systemd components such as logind.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saellaven wrote:
We just won't roll over and accept something we believe to be inferior for our use? It's the fault of "the anti-systemd people" that the pro-systemd people want to eliminate long standing options?


I have personally never made any such claims, or support the idea of forcing anyone to use something. Stop putting words in my mouth. The only people forcing systemd on you is developers choosing to use systemd. If you don't like them choosing against your wish, too bad. Fork. Develop your own solutions. (see the OpenBSD project Anon-E-moose refers to)
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at votes
5 for systemd
50 agaist systemd

Answer to the question "why gentoo is not switching to systemd" is: "because, it's community-driven and we, the community don't want it to switch"
Yeah, 55 votes is a relatively small probe. It is what we have right now and here though, as the others decided not to speak on this topic anymore.
Also, as small as it is, it's still 1vs10.
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